Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

In my opinion the property issue is a political one not one for the legal courts as the only winners, as has just been proved is the lawyers who gain huge fees, and at who's expense?

gosh!

Stuball, why do you say this? Why is the property issue a political one? What makes it a political issue? Who has the right to regulate my property rights (a fundamental human right) through a political agreement? Based on what principle such a thing is assumed?

What is my fault as an individual ordinary citizen if the political leaderships of the two communities, for whatever reason(s,) cannot reach an agreement on the constitutional framework of Cyprus, to have my properties and home deprived from me for 32 years, and some other people to come and without my consent built vacation houses in them? No political dispute can be assumed to be the cause for the violation of individual citizens' fundamental human rights! If this is done, it is not a political problem but a violation of human rights by the perpetrator, and an illegality. The property issue by itself, and taken isolated as an issue, is not a political problem but a problem of illegality, a problem of violation of foundamental human rights and an illegality under the UN charter and the CoE conventions! It is a violation! This is not my invention, but it is the position of international law and the CoE human rights protocols. It is for this very reason that the ECHR ruled in the case of Loizidou, and in the Cyprus vs Turkey one. If the property issue was a mere political problem, the cases would have been dismissed by the court, for being political ones, or politicaly motivated.

The issue of GC properties in the north is not a political issue. It is a legal issue, and one of violation of international human right's laws by Turkey.

[Viewpoint]

I think what he means to say is that you can only solve the property issue on a wholesale basis if you find a political agreement betweem the 2 sides. If you take the Loizdou result has it really solved anything? other than giving Loizidou a financial and moral win over Turkey and the TCs, Has it meant that Gcs can move back I believe Loizidou wont even cross to the north to claim her property. So you continue to persue vegence evaporating vistories which do nothing to changing the long term prospects of finding a solution.

[Viewpoint]

In paragraph 4 the land on which the Orams villa is built had been sold by one Turkish Cypriot to another who in turn sold it to the Orams. Why are the ROC not pursuing these men who sold the land which the court have stated still belonged to mr Apostolides. If the Orams could why do they not sell the house and land to someone else then that would be the end of the case as what has happened to the Turkish Cypriots who originally sold the land? Would the ROC dare prosecute one of their own citizens?

Stuball, the RoC doesn't recognise the transactions committed by an illegal "Land registry" of an illegal entity. Who, when and how “sold” Apostolide’s land to the Orams, is irrelevant to Apostolides. All those transactions are invalid by default. Orams were caught by Apostolides to commit the trespassing in his property, and they are the ones taken to the court for this act, based on the laws of the RoC. If Orams wish to complain at a RoC police station that they were cheated by a TC who appeared to them as the owner of Apostolides land, and with false representations cheated them in buying someone else’s land, then rest sure when the particular TC will cross to the south one day, he will also be arrested. Apostolides has no reason to do that, simply because those in his property at the moment are the Orams. How they got there is not his concern, but the fact that they are there in his property without his (the owner's) authorisation.

So according to your line of thought the TCs who sells his land given to him by the TRNC for land in the south is not to blame and should not be taken to court?

If there is a complaint against him for fraudulent representations by another individual, then he is also liable. If he tries to sell someone else's land as his own and this someone reports him to the police or takes him to the court then he will be sentenced for attempting or committing a fraud.

So all the Orams have to do according to you is sell on preferably to a TC and hope no one complains.

[stuballstu]

Kifeas wrote

stuballstu wrote:
In my opinion the property issue is a political one not one for the legal courts as the only winners, as has just been proved is the lawyers who gain huge fees, and at who's expense?



gosh!

Stuball, why do you say this? Why is the property issue a political one? What makes it a political issue? Who has the right to regulate my property rights (a fundamental human right) through a political agreement? Based on what principle such a thing is assumed?

What is my fault as an individual ordinary citizen if the political leaderships of the two communities, for whatever reason(s,) cannot reach an agreement on the constitutional framework of Cyprus, to have my properties and home deprived from me for 32 years, and some other people to come and without my consent built vacation houses in them? No political dispute can be assumed to be the cause for the violation of individual citizens' fundamental human rights! If this is done, it is not a political problem but a violation of human rights by the perpetrator, and an illegality. The property issue by itself, and taken isolated as an issue, is not a political problem but a problem of illegality, a problem of violation of foundamental human rights and an illegality under the UN charter and the CoE conventions! It is a violation! This is not my invention, but it is the position of international law and the CoE human rights protocols. It is for this very reason that the ECHR ruled in the case of Loizidou, and in the Cyprus vs Turkey one. If the property issue was a mere political problem, the cases would have been dismissed by the court, for being political ones, or politicaly motivated.

The issue of GC properties in the north is not a political issue. It is a legal issue, and one of violation of international human right's laws by Turkey.

Kifeas

Just to clear up what i was meaning. The property issue has to be part of a political settlement on the island as Viewpoint has pointed out. If every refugee was to take someone to court then the courts would be bogged down for the next 30 years. Imagine fellow Cypriots taking each other to court it would hardly be seen as "confidence building" measures and would lead to more distrust, dislike by each community and hopefully you would agree that it is not a very good road map for unity in Cyprus. It would be seen as a result for the divisionalists. It is my opinion that going down the legal route is not going to settle anything in Cyprus, in fact will only make lawyers richer.

[Kifeas]

Stuballstu, is one thing to say that the issue of properties can be better and more efficiently solved within the context of a comprehensive political settlement (that is why it is called a comprehensive settlement,) and another thing to say that the problem of property rights and violations is itself a political problem. I agree with you that it can be more efficiently solved within the context of a comprehensive political agreement. I do not agree though that it is a political problem as such, because it is not. It is a legal issue, and issue of violation of national laws and international human rights laws and agreements and a violation of the UN Charter. Pending such a political settlement that will also address and hopefully resolve in an equitable manner the issue of properties, all other legal channels can be used, especially in view of the on going looting and destruction of the GC properties in the north by TC “developers” and foreign “buyers,” and the inability and unwillingness of Turkey and its regime in the north to take any action to put a halt on it.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas you may be right in as so far as collecting a batch of legal decision in your favor but the bottom line will come to a political solution. Unless the 2 sides can agree the overall structure for how the property issue will be dealt with (the Annan plan being one example) then you will make absoulutely no progress and your collection to legal decisions will remain filed in a cabinet somewhere for the foreseeable future.

Your leadership obviously has no concersn over this issue as they have left is completly to the individuals to sure other indiviuals in the hope that something will give. The great vistory of Loizidou, the GCs claimed has also fizzled out, what happen money and nothing else. You can run around saying we won we won but what does it really bring you? nothing. No change you in the south me in the north a divided island.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas you may be right in as so far as collecting a batch of legal decision in your favor but the bottom line will come to a political solution. Unless the 2 sides can agree the overall structure for how the property issue will be dealt with (the Annan plan being one example) then you will make absoulutely no progress and your collection to legal decisions will remain filed in a cabinet somewhere for the foreseeable future.

Your leadership obviously has no concersn over this issue as they have left is completly to the individuals to sure other indiviuals in the hope that something will give. The great vistory of Loizidou, the GCs claimed has also fizzled out, what happen money and nothing else. You can run around saying we won we won but what does it really bring you? nothing. No change you in the south me in the north a divided island.

The sole reason why we were unable to reach a comprehensive settlement all these years is because your community for most of this time (30years) was electing as its leader your hero Rauf Denktash, who used to go around and claim, together with Ecevit and the Turkish deep-state bureaucrats, that "the Cyprus problem was solved in 1974 once and for ever," and he was unwilling to negotiate anything unless all his illegitimate terms were first met. Even in the Annan plan example, the one from the TC community that was supposedly "negotiating" it, except the last 5 days in Switzerland, was no one else other than your hero! When you seat in a glass house, do not throw stones outside, because all the UN reports of the last 32 years are there and they show was the intransigent and maximalist side! Do not all of suddenly pretend the pro-solution side, because you are not any more interested in a solution than we are. The last UN initiatives after Cambari’s visit show that even Talat is not any better than Denktash in trying to drag his feet.

[Viewpoint]

We have shown that we are for change, imo this is a good thing. We got rid of Denktas, we voted in a pro solution government, we elected a pro unficiation president, we took the streets in the biggest protest ever, we voted yes to the only plan that was ever put before us, if you cant make use of this positivity coming form the north you may never have such an oppportunity ever again, what did you do? what are doing today? other than taking actions which alienate our 2 communities. Do something for the TCs show then you mean business and that a united Cyprus is in their best interests, feel free to take any action you wish to expose the TCs as the side that is against a solution or dragging it feet as you say. Why dont you? maybe just maybe your side is not as snow white as you seem to want to believe.

[andreasv]

I think the British are medlers! no ifs no buts! saying it how it is! inconsiderate and supporting of illegal and forceful behaviour... such as Turkey's invasion and continuing suppression of Turkish and Greek Speaking Cypriot Comunities and Maronites.

[datalife]

What possesses people who have it good to push their luck beyond the limits?I was totally in a state of shock that Blairs wife would even consider taking on such a case.Obviously imagining that she and her hubby are just untouchable.No good will ever come from taking away what doesn't belong to you.

Tony and his wife found it out, very quickly,