Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

what you got against bunnies

[Alexandros Lordos]

MicAtCyp,

about the number of TCs currently in Cyprus: OK, if we say 120K in 1963/74, minus 40K in emigration, =80K, then we still have to add the annual rate of population growth to work out how many TCs are in Cyprus today. Do we know that rate? How many children on average do TCs have? If it is more than two (on average) then the rate of population growth will be high, and the 80K would have grown significantly by now, especially if you take into account mixed marriages of TCs with mainland Turks (who we have agreed are not to be counted as settlers), and their offspring ...

Anyway, has there been a reliable census in the north in recent years, which clearly says which category each person falls under (ie original TC Vs Immigrant)? Do we have such information?

About the number of settlers who would remain under the Annan Plan:

I found the relevant law which talks about naturalisation and facilitated naturalisation ... basically, the way it works with the settlers issue is that 45,000 (wives and children included in the 45K) get citizenship from day one of the solution ... as for the rest of the settlers (however many they are) they can all get citizenship also if they manage to stay in Cyprus for four more years after the solution. This is because the precondition for becoming a citizen through naturalisation is that you have lived in Cyprus for at least nine years, four of which must be after the day the solution is signed ... and this is the thorny part: Essentially, it all boils down to a race against time: If no effective mechanism is found to remove these settlers from Cyprus within four years of the solution, then they will all stay, no exceptions.

[insan]

http://www.cyprus-un-plan.org/AnnexIII/ ... enship.pdf


As far as I understood, all of the TRNC registered settlers and their descendants got the right to have united Cyprus citizenship; depends upon some conditions, all listed in pdf document...


Let's say 45.000 settlers on the list are comprised of 20.000 couples with averagely 3 children per couple; their total number should be approx. 100 or 105 thousands...


Tip: Put "FEDERAL LAW ON CITIZENSHIP OF THE UNITED" words in google search bar and click on search. Then in the first page of the results you'll see "http://www.cyprus-un-plan.org/AnnexIII/AnIIIAt4_Federal_Law_on_Citizenship.pdf" as one of the related web page. Instead of clicking on the link, right click on "html version" and open in new window. All related words will be highlighted in the document and this will help you to examine the relevant part of the issue.

[turkcyp]

Hi MicAtCyp,

I said no bunnies, you have pulled out an elephant,

- First of all, I do not know how Annan Plan defines settlers. But let me tell you how TCs define settlers. Only those foreigners, can be mainland Turk or anybody else, who have TRNC citizenship right now is settler. And as far as I know in Annan Plan, there are no provisions for people who are in north working (legally or not legally) without being a citizen. So long story short Annan Plan defines settlers as we define them as well.

- Coming back to your creative math: You are assuming that TC population has no population growth rate. You are assuming that 1/3 of TC society have left the island.

If I make the same assumptions, I can even pull out a dino out of the hat not just elephant.

The simple truth in Cyprus remains is that some parts of your society who is nationalistic start a propaganda. And after some passage of time, you even start believeing your own propoganda yourself.

But you can never explain the simple question like
"If as you said that mainlanders are 60% of the population in the north, how come they never vote for themsleves but keep on electing TC representatives?"

I assume your answer to this will be
" It is all a part of a grand deception, played by Turkey and TCs to trick us".

Anyway have a grat day,

[Alexandros Lordos]

Turkcyp,

OK, if it is not 1/3 of TCs who have left the island, then what percent is it? Do you have any statistical data available (eg emigration statistics)?

Personally, I really hope that what you say is indeed true, and that the number of settlers in Cyprus is smaller than what we GCs fear ...

[Alexandros Lordos]

- First of all, I do not know how Annan Plan defines settlers. But let me tell you how TCs define settlers. Only those foreigners, can be mainland Turk or anybody else, who have TRNC citizenship right now is settler. And as far as I know in Annan Plan, there are no provisions for people who are in north working (legally or not legally) without being a citizen. So long story short Annan Plan defines settlers as we define them as well.

Actually, the Annan Plan makes no distinction between "TRNC citizens" and people "just working" in the north. As far as the Annan Plan goes, someone who has lived in Cyprus long enough (before and after the solution) becomes a citizen by naturalisation, irrespective of whether he was considered a citizen before.

[insan]

But you can never explain the simple question like
"If as you said that mainlanders are 60% of the population in the north, how come they never vote for themsleves but keep on electing TC representatives?"

I've answered to this question before but let me say it once again:

They don't dare to bite the hand(mainly Eroglu&Denktash Junior who had been holding all the resources of North in their monopole) that fed them with GC properties from 1974 until now.



turkcyp, I sometimes feel suspicious whether you are a TC or not... Perhaps you are the same person with tcypriot, oddly enough that we can't see him around nowadays...

[erolz]

If your answer to this is yes do we agree that the number of TCs in 1963 was 120K and remained the same until 1974 yes or no.
Then do we agree that AT LEAST 1/3 of the TCs emigrated abroad from 1974 until today yes or No?
If we agree with that the rest is plain maths.

I am sorry MicAtCyp - I thought you were offering PROOF of your claimed numbers (evidence, statistics etc etc). It now seems you are offering a 'negotiatied agreement' on these numbers?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Any actual evidence, anyone? ...

[erolz]

Any actual evidence, anyone? ...

I do not believe there is such eveidence. I am not even sure that the authorites here even know with any real degree of accuracy what the number is. If they do they are not releasing any hard evidence. The whole issue of how many settlers there are in the North has been a massive 'game' played by both sides. GC adminstrations have constantly leaned towards 'high end' estimates and TC to 'low end' estimates.This game playing has now left us with considrable problems if we are to try and find a solution. The constant historic leaning towards 'high end' figures from GC for 'propaganda' puprposes has actualy left them in a weak position with regard to the Annan plan. If we imagine for example that there are actualy 70,000 settlers in the North but the GC have always claimed there are 120,000 then if the TC agree to a settlement based on 45,000 (which with 'fudging' could include 90% of the 70,000) then in effect the previous GC insitance that there are 120,000 settlers here works against the desire to have settlers removed as part of a settlement. This is just one example for me that illustrates how the 'propaganda war' that has raged for so long in Cyprus makes the task of negotiating a real settlement so much the harder.

One thing that I do believe without any doubt however, form a purely subjective perspective of having lived in the North, is that on average the Turkish mainland settlers in the North in comparative terms (to other groups like TC, or EU expats) are economically and politically 'weak' as a group.