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[insan]

accepting federation as a compromise is true. What is not true is the domination part. For some reason when I say that TCs shouldn't have a veto power on everything, you come up and you claim that I said that TCs shouldn't have a veto on anything, that I want GCs to dominate TCs and stuff like that. This is simply not true.

We well understood your point Piratis,

TCs will have a veto power on the matters(Education, Religion, Language) which have been defined in the constitution but GCs will have a veto power on matters(Economics, Foreign Affairs, Security, etc) other than what has been defined in constitution.

You want TCs don't use their veto on that matters even if the decision of GCs harms interests of TCs, regarding economics, foreign affairs, security etc...

And you also want to use your veto power on that matters if the decision of TCs doesn't serve GCs interests.


Shortly to say, you want only the GCs to control the matters which involves the foreign affairs, economics, security etc... With your definition, these are the critical matters for GCs and not for TCs. You think that what critical for TCs are only education, language, culture and religion...

And you are trying to convince us that this is democratic and fair in an unified Cyprus...


Don't make me laugh piratis...[/quote]

[Piratis]

I never talked talked about GC vetos.

The economy, foreign affairs, security etc will not be decided by GCs alone, but by all Cypriots collectively.

Why should you have 4.5 votes and me just 1 when we decide something about economics?

I accept not to have the power to decide about things that are unrelated to me such as Turkish language, muslim religion, TC culture. But for things like economy I will never accept to be a second category citizen, and Insan to have 4.5 times more voting power than me because Insan is Turkish and I am not.

[turkcyp]

And also Piratis you should know the difference between “veto” and “blocking”. As far as I know, (correct me if I am wring) at no time in 1960 constituion TCs has right to veto economy.

They have right to veto foreign affairs, security, and defense related decisions.

What you are talking about as veto is actually blocking legislation. And that is only possible on some scenarios one of them being budget. Which basically calls for a compromise between TCs and GCs if we would have to break the deadlock.

You have said that, I can not accept in economic matters that a TC vote being worth of 4.5 times of GC vote. Well I guess you are not aware of what really representative democracy means.

In any representative democracy, at any given time always some vote will worth more than the other. Like votes of people living in South Dakota is worth 5 times votes of people living in California (and this 5 is only for US congress, I am not even counting the fact that both South Dakota and California has equal number of senators, which makes this 5 looks ridiculously small)

You can find this kind of discrepancies all the time. Sometimes they are small and sometime they are big. The MPs in London are elected with much much more vote then, an MP living in rural England. So basically one votes worth much much more if you cast is rural England, then in London.

The only difference between these examples and Cypus, is that in 1960 constituiton Cyprus votes are cast not at the regional basis but on the community basis, bringing ethnicty into picture.

I suggest you go and reevaluate your idea of representative democracy.

What you say is only true under direct democracy, in a unitary state (not even a federal state)

Have a good day,

[Piratis]

If I live in California, I can move to Dakota any time I want. And then I will vote as a Dakota resident. The same in UK. If I want I can move to a rural area.

Therefore the state does not descriminate against people in these cases since people are free to move around and make their choices.

Another point is that the USA has 52 states. A single state can not block anything. This is why I asked another time if you accept Armenians, Maronites and Latins to have political equality as well.

[insan]

But for things like economy I will never accept to be a second category citizen, and Insan to have 4.5 times more voting power than me because Insan is Turkish and I am not.

This is something that equalizes and balances our political powers not something which put you in a citizen of a second category. Having 4.5 times more voting power than TCs, automaticaly gives you the sole control of the matters which involve economics, foreign affairs, security etc... even if the 2/3 or more number of the TC senators do not agree on the contents of a bill which introduced by a group of GC senators and voted in favour by 2/3 or more number of GC senators; TC senators will have no right to reject it and demand improvements on that bill to make it fairer in favour of TCs... Why? because economics, foreign affairs and security issues are critical matters for GCs and TCs shouldn't have a right to reject, adjourn or demand improvements on...


It is obvious who puts whom into a second category citizen....

[insan]

Another point is that the USA has 52 states. A single state can not block anything. This is why I asked another time if you accept Armenians, Maronites and Latins to have political equality as well.

At the day all ethnic minorities have been accepted to have political equality in US, we'll also accept all ethnic minorities to have political equality in Cyprus, piratis... So, keep twisting the meaning of the concepts in order to make them suit your needs... In the and you'll wake up with broken dreams...

[Piratis]

automatically gives you the sole control of the matters which involve economics, foreign affairs, security etc

It gives me? I am one person, and I definitely do not have the sole control of anything of what you mentioned. I have just a small fraction of that control (theoretically anyway).

So I will have the exact same control like you have. Not more not less (and I do not accept it any other way)

At the day all ethnic minorities have been accepted to have political equality in US, we'll also accept all ethnic minorities to have political equality in Cyprus, piratis

Why do you want to dominate the Armenians, Maronites and Latins? Hey, maybe Armenia is excused to invade us now?

[insan]

automatically gives you the sole control of the matters which involve economics, foreign affairs, security etc


It gives me? I am one person, and I definitely do not have the sole control of anything of what you mentioned. I have just a small fraction of that control (theoretically anyway).

So I will have the exact same control like you have. Not more not less (and I do not accept it any other way)

You still trying to twist piratis... You well know that by saying "you" I meant GC community; actually GC ruling and leading elites....

[Piratis]

I am not "GC Community". I am a Cypriot citizen, and now an EU citizen, that I will not accept to be a second category citizen because I happen to speak Greek.

[erolz]

It gives me? I am one person, and I definitely do not have the sole control of anything of what you mentioned. I have just a small fraction of that control (theoretically anyway).

Same old 'mindest' and obfuscation tatctics, even after all the discussions here
You know there is a difference between the individual and the community that the indivdual belongs to. It is also beyond argument that (different) rights apply to the indivdual as to the community. It is clear that the 'you' refers to the GC community and not to you as an indivdual, yet you still 'confuse' one with the other (and I cannot believe you do so other than purposely).

So I will have the exact same control like you have. Not more not less (and I do not accept it any other way)

No you (as in your community) will have effective total control over Cyprus (and over the TC community). How many times must I repaet this mantra. As indivduals we are all equal and one person one vote is the 'rule'. As communites we are also equal and one community one vote should be the 'rule'. Having said this I have always accepted that there is a difference because of the sizes of the two communites and have never argued for total equality on all issues.

Why do you want to dominate the Armenians, Maronites and Latins? Hey, maybe Armenia is excused to invade us now?

Have these groups ever expressed their wish for self determination?
Are these groups anywhere near a numerical number that warrants an argument that they represent seperate 'communites'?
Have these groups been subjected to the same aggression and antagonism as the TC community has been ?

You are like a stuck record Piratis, usinng the same old 'flawed' arguments over and over, seemingly impervious to any prior discussions. How many times have we discussed and explained the basis for the different status for the GC community and the TC community vs those other groups you list. You do not have to accept 'our' position on this but do you have to continue behaving, over and over again, as if we have never explained our position clearly before?