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Maybe some questions should be asked here tonight?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Natty » Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:12 pm

Yes colonial powers ruled you my uncle even fought against the E,OK,A
But plaese open your eyes and realise the average brit is not the drunk not the trouble maker but someone who embraces the south and all who dwell there


It's true, there is a bit too much generalizing and stereotyping going on, on this forum, for my liking :( ....I think amongst the Greek Cypriots there's a disappointment in the British policy on Cyprus, especially in the past, but generally we don't hold it against, and 'hate' the 'British' (well then I guess I'd hate my self..kind of...hehe :wink: ), after all, many Cypriots (back in the day) went to England to get a better life, or were given refuge after the invasion....

You say that your Uncle fought against EOKA, well as my nan Say's, he was just doing his job, just like all the other British soldiers stationed in Cyprus at that time, and this is from a women who's husband was arrested for being a suspected member of EOKA, and kept in prison for many months, without a trial...

It's evident that you have a lot of love for Cyprus and the Cypriots, and I hope, just as much as you, that Cyprus will one day be truly united again... :D

Peace! :)
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Postby Issy1956 » Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:32 pm

Natty,
Just to remind you that our troubles didnt begin with the Invasion/Peace Operation(take your pick) and to make your list complete you should not forget that many TC's (my family and I for example) went to England and were given refuge after being driven out of their homes by the Greek Cypriots in 63. And I for one will always be grateful to the Brits for that. I have no hesitation in being critical ,with good intention, of my adopted homeland where I feel it necessary and I feel that it might do some good.
The local Cypriots should not be so sensitive. You should all take the biggest chill pill you can find. Relax.
Peace.
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Postby Natty » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:02 pm

Issy1956 wrote:Natty,
Just to remind you that our troubles didnt begin with the Invasion/Peace Operation(take your pick) and to make your list complete you should not forget that many TC's (my family and I for example) went to England and were given refuge after being driven out of their homes by the Greek Cypriots in 63. And I for one will always be grateful to the Brits for that. I have no hesitation in being critical ,with good intention, of my adopted homeland where I feel it necessary and I feel that it might do some good.
The local Cypriots should not be so sensitive. You should all take the biggest chill pill you can find. Relax.
Peace.


No, I completely agree! :)
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:26 pm

PaulUK wrote: Sorry but until the island is united and the turk troops gone it will be north and south


How about occupied areas and free areas to reflect more the context you yourself is underlying?

NB. The terms North and south do offend me but I can excuse them coming from TCs as I know the brainwashing they were undergone for 30+ years. But when coming from a British like you I kindly request you to avoid using them, not because I want to discriminate against you, but I would expect that from a person who lives in a real Democratic country which admitetely civility wise is some steps superior.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:41 pm

Issy1956 wrote:Natty,
Just to remind you that our troubles didnt begin with the Invasion/Peace Operation(take your pick) and to make your list complete you should not forget that many TC's (my family and I for example) went to England and were given refuge after being driven out of their homes by the Greek Cypriots in 63. And I for one will always be grateful to the Brits for that. I have no hesitation in being critical ,with good intention, of my adopted homeland where I feel it necessary and I feel that it might do some good.
The local Cypriots should not be so sensitive. You should all take the biggest chill pill you can find. Relax.
Peace.


Issy, don't you think there is a marked difference between what happened in 1963/64 and 1974, visa vie people's rights to their homes and properties?

In 1963/64, many TCs were presumably compelled to temporarily live behind (abandone) their homes and villages and seek refuge in safer areas due to the intercommunal fights that begun in various places around Cyprus, and the fear of being attacked by Greek Cypriots. However, neither the RoC nor or anyone from the GC community have ever assumed the right of ownership ("formall" usurping) of those TC properties left behind, and technically, those TCs that had abandoned them, were always free to return to them and utilise them any time after the presumed danger had passed or that they would have felt it was safe for them to have done so. As a mater of fact, in early 1968, when the GC side decided to lift up the control check posts outside the by then created TC enclaves, many TCs (not the majority though) decided to return and assume the utilisation of their properties, and even some of them to returned to their homes and villages, and this contrary to all the strict thretening instructions of the TMT. Since then (1968,) and up until 1974, there is absolutely no single reported case involving the death or attack again any TC, and in practice everyone was free to return to their villages and properties out of which they have left in 1963/64, and in cases in which their houses have been destroyed they were encouraged to apply for a re-contraction government aid plus minimum interest loans. Of course, the reality is that very few had chosen to do so, and this not because of the GCs but because of the TMT that wouldn't allow them to abandon the enclaves, always having in mind the plans them and Turkey for an invasion and partition.

On the other hand, in 1974 the GCs were force out of the north, and since they were not allowed to return, but even worst, the illegally established regime assumed the usurping of all their homes and properties, claimed their ownership in an institutionalised way (by "law") and even proceeded to their "sale" or distribution to third persons other than their owners, and up to this day it refuses to accept that those homes and properties were illegally usurped.

Is there a difference between the two cases, yes or no?
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Postby Issy1956 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:10 am

Kifeas,
I try not to differentiate between the suffering endured by the GC and TC communities in the Cyprus conflict from the 60's to the present date. Each person's loss and grief is individual to themselves and I would be loath to say that we suffered more than you or anyone else. Believe it or not I sympathise with the GC's who lost their lives and their homes in 74. The events of Cyprus were and continue to be a tragedy for all concerned.
As a matter of fact we were never able to return to our home in Kaimakli in 1963 because it was burnt to the ground but this is a minor detail-the plot now stands in the forbidden zone and it really doesnt matter who lays claim to it.
I must confess I am not as familar with the events in Cyprus between 1963 and 1974 as you are other than noting that there were some troubles in 1967/8 in which Turkey threatened to invade but failed to do so and ofcourse the Greek coup in 1974 the consequences of which you are all too familiar. I am also aware that the two communities were in discussion trying to reach an agreement upto 1974 and failed to do until they were overtaken by events. However as much as you try and blame the TC's, Turkey and the TMT I think it is true to say that without the Greek coup the Turks would not be in Cyprus today and we might have resolved our differences.
However to return to your thesis about the differences between the two situations I would only respond that all the individuals suffered equally at both these times. The suffering caused by the loss of property I personally dont rate as highly as the loss of life and the trauma and suffering caused by eviction from a home. One can always start again as long as you have your life and limb and the will to work. Many many GC's and TC's did just that in the UK, Australia and elsewhere. I along with many other TC's have land in the ROC (apart from the burnt house) and no doubt you have your land in the North. My contention is that the real owners ie you and I should be compensated in full within the framework of an overall political settlement/agreement in Cyprus. We not paupers or thieves and would only want what we are entitled to.
However I truly cannot see a situation underwhich all Greek Cypriots with land in the North could get their land back and be able to return and I am sorry about that but that is reality. However I would hope that you and all the other true owners of the GC land in the North be compensated in full for your losses if you dont get your land back when and if we get a settlement. Inshallah as they say.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:09 pm

Issy1956 wrote: However I truly cannot see a situation underwhich all Greek Cypriots with land in the North could get their land back and be able to return and I am sorry about that but that is reality. However I would hope that you and all the other true owners of the GC land in the North be compensated in full for your losses if you dont get your land back when and if we get a settlement. Inshallah as they say.


Compensations have to be paid by the current user assuming the owner accepts the deal. I foresee the following.
1.Many GCs will refuse to sell at any price.
2.The majority of GCs will just keep ownership of their properties but will never return.
3.Most Tcs will try to exchange their properties with what they currently hold. About one third of them will eventually reach a deal.
4.Many TCs will not be able to neither reach a deal, nor balance in value of exchanged property neither pay for any difference so they will have to coninue using the GC properties paying rent.
5.The majority of settlers will have to leave or abandon the properties they now hold, as they will not be able to afford any option.
6.The foreigners will be in big trouble because any possible deal for the expensive lands they builted their villas is going to be on sky-rocketed prices, so the majority of them will simply have to abandon those properties.

We are now in the EU and because of that any solution that dares touch on ownership rights of peoples properties is going to be trashed at the ECHR. Therefore no solution can possibly force anyone sell, or get compensated unless his property was used for public projects.
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Postby Issy1956 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:34 pm

Pyrpolizer,
Even with the limitations that you highlight we would be heading in the right direction. I have no sympathy with the settlers other than to say that it is up to Turkey to compensate them if appropriate. As for the foreigners they knew full well what they were taking on when they purchased in the North. It would be nice to see some progress soon
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:49 pm

Woops, I am glad we agree Issy1956.

I am curious if other TCs agree though.
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Postby PaulUK » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:02 pm

Issy1956 wrote:Pyrpolizer,
Even with the limitations that you highlight we would be heading in the right direction. I have no sympathy with the settlers other than to say that it is up to Turkey to compensate them if appropriate. As for the foreigners they knew full well what they were taking on when they purchased in the North. It would be nice to see some progress soon


I would agree :D
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