Cyprus-Forum.com

[turkcyp]

This topic keep on coming up on every topic so I assume it is time to dedicate just one topic for itself. I believe this is one of the most serious concerns of GCs about the Annan Plan. So here we go we can discuss it here.

First let’s define who is a settler? I propose we devote the first one or two pages on agreeing on who is a settler and then later on we can try to find an acceptable solution to this sticky point.

It seems to me that GCs understanding and TCs (at least my and many of the TCs understanding of settler) understanding of settler is quite different.

Right now in north Cyprus there are four kinds of mainland Turkey origin people.
a) The ones that came here and settled and after some time received TRNC citizenship.
b) The ones that came here to work and actively seeked legal permit to work here. These are the ones that come with passport, and apply to have a work permit, and their labor is desired by some company in TRNC. This group do not currently have TRNC citizenship, but just a work permit, (just like an H-1 visa, for those who are familiar with US system)
c) Third group are the students that come to study in the universities.
d) Fourth group are the ones that come here to work, but they are illegal. These are the ones that do not come with the passport, and thus can not apply for legal work permit.

And of course there are Turkish Tourists as well, but I do not bother to classify them here. I assume GCs have no objection to tourists, but you never know.

Many TCs and I, refer to only group A. as settlers. These are the ones that mostly come after 1974 during 70s. And of course after the initial wave of these settlers there are the ones that come to settle every year, but those that come in every year, are very very much less in numbers, and are usually the ones that are in group B, but become citizen after certain amount of time. This is the main issue in every election time in north Cyprus, where some the group B, are given TRNC citizenship just before elections so that they can vote for the incumbent party. For example, I believe in the last election time there were around 1300 people ( I may be wrong on these figures) in this category applied and given citizenship and when Talat government come to power revoked most of their citizenship.

This portion (the ones which are TRNC citizen) of the mainland Turks, are probably 1/4 th (25%) of the active Turkish mainland origins. I assume there are around 45000-55000 (again its just a guess). Majority if this group around 75% came immediately after 1974 and have been living here for the last 25 plus years. They had kids born here, and some of them married to TCs. So when TCs talk about the settlers they only talk about this group.

I, and I believe most of the TCs as well, personally have no problem of kicking group D out immediately. They are illegal on the island even with the TRNC terms. This group I believe is around 15-20% of the mainland Turks.

The most sticky point are the ones in Group B. These are the ones that come here to work, and obtained legal work permit. I believe these are the ones should go as well once there is a solution. These are around 40-45% of the mainland Turks here on the island. After the solution, what can be done is that there work permit stop being renewed every year. So they will have to live, in this way they will be out of the island in one year time.

I have no problem with Group C, and I believe they should stay even after the solution. After all, these are the students that come to island only to study, and almost all of them return back to Turkey after 4 years of college. They are a major contribution to north side economy, and after the solution they can come to Cyprus as foreign students, like they go to UK, or USA. I mean they are on the island right now as foreign students as well, and are treated like that anyway. (Pay higher tuitions, pay different taxes etc, etc.) I believe these are around 20000.

So at anytime when GC sees a settler the probability of he/she is see in a settler that we call settler (group A) is only around I would say 25%. At any current time in north Cyprus I believe there are around 140000 mainland Turks, but what we call settler is only around 45-55000 of them. The rest has to go as I have explained earlier, with the exceptions of students.

In the context of solution, me personally I could even agree on the reduction in Group A. But the reduction should be done starting from the late comers, towards the ones that have come to Cyprus initially, let’s say the ones that become citizen in the last 10 years. Most of the early comers have no life outside Cyprus right now, there would be to much human cost of sending them back to Turkey. As I have said there is almost a generation among these up to ages of 35-40 that have either born here, or come here at the age of less then 10 years old, who have accepted Cyprus as their home. I believe it is not feasible to send these away anyway.

Also I believe every settler that has married to a TC should have a right to stay. Anyway any solution that does not accommodate those initial settlers up to certain degree will not be accepted in north anyway. The reason being, these group A are TRNC citizens, and they vote in referendum. There is no way that they will vote for “Yes” for any solution, if they have to move back to Turkey. This is just cruel realities of life for GCs, and this is another reason that time is working against them. This Group A is around 45-55000 people right now. And in the last referendum, a very strong majority of them had voted for yes because Annan plan was legalizing them up to certain degree. If they switch their vote to “No” that 65% yes vote will not be enough next time to pass the referendum.

Of course you may say those settlers should not vote anyway. This is between GCs and TCs. For that I do not believe there exist a mechanism to determine which settler become TC. That is a very controversial measure which will never be accepted in TC community.

There is also another solution as well. You can let the settlers stay, but strip them from their citizenship rights, so that they can vote. But I believe this is not feasible because as well, because I don’t think either GCs or settlers would have liked this. This, I believe does not serve anybodies interest.

Any way what is your comments after this long post.

[brother]

Generally sums it up, but what about the properties they were given free of charge.

[turkcyp]

Generally sums it up, but what about the properties they were given free of charge.

Dear brother,

Lets not get carried away. Let's accept who is settler first, and then we can find a solution for them. Because I sincerely belive that TCs and GCs are not on teh same page as to who is a settler and who is not.

Once we can agree on who is a settler, then we can move on to solution proposals. I understand your question and I have my answer for that, but I am keeping my answer for myslef so that I do not disperse the discussion to some other areas. One step at a time.

Have a good day,

[insan]

Right now in north Cyprus there are four kinds of mainland Turkey origin people.
a) The ones that came here and settled and after some time received TRNC citizenship.
b) The ones that came here to work and actively seeked legal permit to work here. These are the ones that come with passport, and apply to have a work permit, and their labor is desired by some company in TRNC. This group do not currently have TRNC citizenship, but just a work permit, (just like an H-1 visa, for those who are familiar with US system)
c) Third group are the students that come to study in the universities.
d) Fourth group are the ones that come here to work, but they are illegal. These are the ones that do not come with the passport, and thus can not apply for legal work permit.

The question is the "settlers", actually to define them "illegaly imported" settlers would be more accurate... So the students from Turkey, mainland labourers who have a work permit or illegaly stay in North are out of this question...

settler n. 1. a person or thing that settles.2. a person who settles in a new country or area.

In my opinion only those who illegaly imported from all around the world(Mostly from Turkey for political and economical exploitation purposes.) are the settlers. The ones who are married with a TC woman or man also cannot be considered as an "illegaly imported" settler. The faked marriages can be investigated but this is also out of the main question of "illegaly imported" settlers.


Another question is that if their Cyprus born children should be considered as an "illegaly imported" settler or not. In my opinion they shouldn't be considered as "illegaly imported" settlers... So another question is should they have the right to live in Cyprus as the citizens of United Cyprus? In my opinion, yes but this issue should be discussed with GC side to reach a mutually agreed settlement... We cannot tell the GC side "we decided all to stay and be granted citizenship, we don't care wether you approve or not."


We should also not forget that there will be a finacial cost of the allowed Cyprus born children of the settlers. Should the Cypriots pay the finacial cost of the Cyprus born children of the settlers who are only the holder of a right to what they paid. Yes, it is highly probable that a certain percentage of the Cyprus born children of settlers might have built houses on the freely given GC land. If our famous so-called TRNC governments made some statistics regarding with these issues and informed us about it we can easily calculate the approx. cost. Or if the famous so-called GOC, more rationaly have approached the settlers issue and asked/enforced the so-called TRNC government to give some statistical data inorder to calculate the cost of the Cyprus born children of the settlers who probable to be allowed to stay in Cyprus as the citizens of United Cyprus; we would have seen what we are dealing with.


so-called, so-called, so-called... everything is so-called....

[turkcyp]

[quote="insan]
The question is the "settlers", actually to define them "illegaly imported" settlers would be more accurate... So the students from Turkey, mainland labourers who have a work permit or illegaly stay in North are out of this question...[/quote]

This is exactly why I have opened this subject actually. Most of teh GCs I know personally thought that every mainland Turk that is in north is a settler.

I understand the main reason for this is their govermnet's contiunious misinformation campaign by saying " the north is full of settlers". So when they come to north side every mainland Turk they see they assume that he/she is a settler.

This is the impression I got from the GCs I have met personally. When I explained to couple of them not all the mainlanders they see on the street is a settler, they were happily suprised to learn. They admitted that they thought "Every mainland Turk has a right to come and settle in TRNC and become a citizen, and therefore every mainland Turk they see on the street they assume are settler"

I do not know how the GC community in the forum know this. But i wanted to clarrify, just in case they are misinformed as the ones I have met personally.

And I remember one of them once even asked me "With so many settlers how are you still able to choose very high majority TCs as your representatives?". That is when I realize that there is a widespread misinformations on GC side.

[magikthrill]

ok here is how i see it.

turkcyp, from your definitions groups B, C and D are of irrelevant importance because:

B) work permit holders would require a new permit if they wish to stay in Cyprus, otbained from the Republic of Cyprus (afters its been reunited), right?

C) students are all over the world. they can study give CYprus their money and then leave, unless they qualify for a worker's permit so this doesnt really matter either.

D) hmmm I didn't know that from the illegal settlers in the north there were ones that even the pseudo state recognized illegal. thats interesting. they'll obviously be gone is my guess.


Now for the first group. As I have said prevoiusly in the past, by allowing illegal settlers to remain in the north, Turkey's invasion and breach of international law are being condoned. That's what it really comes down to.
I don't see why any GC in his right mind would allow ANY type of settler to remain. This includes:
a) settlers that came illegally in 1974
b) settlers that came illegally after 1974

Now for
c) those that were born from illegal settlers and
d) illegal settlers that married Cypriots
These two categories can be considered a tricky issue but this would also depend on the constitution of Cyprus

Specifically, if the constitution claims that any person born in Cyprus has right to citizenship or any person marrying a Cypriot citizen has the right to citizenship than I guess it would be ok.

In my opinion, the only type of settlers that should be allowed to remain are the ones who were born to at least on Cypriot parent . Then that is ok. All others should either be removed or have the option to apply for a permanent resident status.

Either way, aboslutely no way in hell, should a Turkish settler or a child of a Turkish settler or anytype of settle whatsoever be allowed to remain in an occupied house. I think we can all agree on that last part no?[/b]

In conclusion, although many might not think its fair to remove these settlers, in my opinion it's not fair to have a third group of people on the island. By only having Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot (citizens that is) on the island then one day it would be possible to remove that Greek and Turkish adjective in the front and unite the people of this island once and for all. But even if you remove Turkish from Turkish settler, that's still an outsider group.

Out they go I say.

[turkcyp]

Dear magikthrill,

ok here is how i see it.

turkcyp, from your definitions groups B, C and D are of irrelevant importance because:

B) work permit holders would require a new permit if they wish to stay in Cyprus, otbained from the Republic of Cyprus (afters its been reunited), right?

C) students are all over the world. they can study give CYprus their money and then leave, unless they qualify for a worker's permit so this doesnt really matter either.

D) hmmm I didn't know that from the illegal settlers in the north there were ones that even the pseudo state recognized illegal. thats interesting. they'll obviously be gone is my guess.

We agree on all this so far. And yes there are a lot of mainland Turks on the island that comes here with a tourist vise, which means they can stay upto 3-6 months but they end up accepting jobs, and staying for the long term. These are illegal even in TRNC terms.

Now for the first group. As I have said prevoiusly in the past, by allowing illegal settlers to remain in the north, Turkey's invasion and breach of international law are being condoned. That's what it really comes down to.
I don't see why any GC in his right mind would allow ANY type of settler to remain. This includes:
a) settlers that came illegally in 1974
b) settlers that came illegally after 1974

Now for
c) those that were born from illegal settlers and
d) illegal settlers that married Cypriots
These two categories can be considered a tricky issue but this would also depend on the constitution of Cyprus

Specifically, if the constitution claims that any person born in Cyprus has right to citizenship or any person marrying a Cypriot citizen has the right to citizenship than I guess it would be ok.

In my opinion, the only type of settlers that should be allowed to remain are the ones who were born to at least on Cypriot parent . Then that is ok. All others should either be removed or have the option to apply for a permanent resident status.

As I have said in many posts, what I can agree on, what international law says, and what are the realities on the ground and what is feasible does not coincide unfortunately.

Any solution that does not satisfy major elements of Group A, will be rejected in north Cyprus, since these Group A settlers have right to vote in north, and they certainly will reject the plan that kicks them out of Cyprus after 25 years. (I am not even talking of human and financial cost of relocating all these Group A, back to Turkey, which I believe is huge)

Now you might say, they should not get to vote for the solution anyway. They are illegal on the island. This is between GCs and TCs. Well there is no practical mechanism of seperating who gets to vote in north. If you try to do that then you simply will start a civil disobedince in the north which may even get out of control and turn into civil fight between TCs and Group A. And I do not think that any of the TCs want another struggle.

So I believe kicking all of them out as you have suggested is not feasible. Of course at this point you might not accept the harsh realities after 30 years, but believe me realities will get even harsher everyday on the ground, if the solution delays. Because everyday passes some more settler is born on this island, and some more settler will settle with a TC on this island, (which by even your definition can stay in the island), or the initail true settler is dying.

In other words Group A, everyday settles on this island, and its ethnic composition changes everyday, towards more to TC then mainland Turkish. I am not even counting the new ones that are becoming Group A everyday, because it is easy to relocate the new settlers than the old ones.

Anyway these are the harsh realities in Cyprus right now, whether we like it or not. And any solution that does not conform with the realities have a very slim chance of working. (Basically feasibility over fairness) The way I see it there is no way we are sending away all of the settlers without causing another bad chapter in Cyprus history.

Either way, aboslutely no way in hell, should a Turkish settler or a child of a Turkish settler or anytype of settle whatsoever be allowed to remain in an occupied house. I think we can all agree on that last part no?[/b]

As I have said in another post, let's take one step at a time. Firts we have too agree on who can stay and who can go, then we can decide how thos people are going to stay.

In conclusion, although many might not think its fair to remove these settlers, in my opinion it's not fair to have a third group of people on the island. By only having Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot (citizens that is) on the island then one day it would be possible to remove that Greek and Turkish adjective in the front and unite the people of this island once and for all. But even if you remove Turkish from Turkish settler, that's still an outsider group.

Out they go I say.

This is not related to topic here but I personally do not see the need to create on Cypriot ethnicity. In the ideal case, for me Cyprus will be like USA. Everybody is American, but some are Irish American, and some are Italian American, some are Indian American. Ethnicity does not have to do anything with nationality in my book. But again this is off the topic.

Overall thanks for you honest responses,

[magikthrill]

no turkcyp, thank YOU for your honest comments

what i have to say is why should the settlers be allowed to vote??? that makes NO sense.

if the settlers are allowed to vote then why dont the GCs bring a bunch of Greeks from Greece give them citizenship and allow them to vote? is that in any way fair? of course not!

and as far as american identity is concerned you have it wrong. livin in the US every citizen considers to be american. they're "italian-american" or "irish-american" status is just in terms of background. these people would fight w/ america if it went to war with their background country. there is one citizenship that unites everyone together. that's how it should be in cyprus too.

if the majoirty of GCs and TCs want the settlers to be removed then they should be removed.

[Piratis]

I will leave the legal/illegal part out. The TRNC is illegal itself, so there is no point of even discussing about "TRNC work permits", "TRNC citizenships" and such.

Now, coming to the "realities" of turkcyp.
1) If somebody is married to a TC then he/she can get the citizenship.
2) A number from the rest can get the citizenship (say 20-25 thousands). Who exactly will be this 20-25 thousands should be decided on a case by case basis by a bicommunal committee.

3)Tourists, students, workers etc from Turkey can come on a temporary visa like all other foreigners.

The settlers that will leave should be compensated by Turkey, and this should be part of the agreed solution.

[turkcyp]

no turkcyp, thank YOU for your honest comments

what i have to say is why should the settlers be allowed to vote??? that makes NO sense.

if the settlers are allowed to vote then why dont the GCs bring a bunch of Greeks from Greece give them citizenship and allow them to vote? is that in any way fair? of course not!

and as far as american identity is concerned you have it wrong. livin in the US every citizen considers to be american. they're "italian-american" or "irish-american" status is just in terms of background. these people would fight w/ america if it went to war with their background country. there is one citizenship that unites everyone together. that's how it should be in cyprus too.

if the majoirty of GCs and TCs want the settlers to be removed then they should be removed.

I totally understand your frustuation about the settlers having right to vote in north, and I tottaly see your point of view.

But again you have said if the TCs and GCs both want, then they should be removed. And for that all I can say that I do not know if all the TCs want settlers to be removed. Many see them as population balancing factor, which has changed dramatically against TCs since 1963. Since 1963 until 1974, there were simply to many TCs leaving island to Europe, because if intercommunal strife and after 1974 there are many TCs leaving island to Europe for economicak reasons mainly due to isolation. So there are decent amount of TC's that see them simply as population balancing factor.

For example I do not believe that without settler vote, the last Annan Plan would have got a "Yes" vote that decisievly in north. A strong majority of Group A had voted "yes" and contributed to 65% in the north. If you take them out, the "Yes" vote would have been much much closer I believe. Of course this is simply my observation, I might be wriong.

Furthermore if you say (I am not saying that you do) those who are born on the island, and those who are married to TCs can stay, then you are already putting at least 45-50% of the Group A population as "stay".

Anyway, these are what I see as reality, and I am not claiming that they are FAIR, but simply saying it will be impossible to find a solution in Cyprus without consent of the majority of the Group A.