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[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

Everything! You name it.
I don’t want to elaborate on the negative ones, so here’s some pleasant shocks:

Feel free to express yourself thats why we are here to hear your point of view and learn, or even correct any misconception you may have.

Perhaps you don’t know that Talat in the presense of Kambari even refused the concept of BBF and insisted on a confederation of 2 separate countries. In the end, yes he yielded just because the UN representative was present.

Were you there at the meeting? or are you just going on what you have been fed?

You must be joking. We never agreed on that. In fact we never accepted the final provision of 2 Central Banks, which means two separate monetary policies.

This statement tells me you have not read the Annan plan and that you are talking rubbish. There was to be one central bank (article 36)with a branch in the north to be closed after a transition period, the currency was to be the Cyprus pound and therefore there could only be monetary policy. I rest my case many GCs just do not know the truth about the AP and only go on what they have read or been told.

We never agreed on that either. This provision was set in the Anan Plan despite our objection that we cannot accept more than 35, 000 including those who got married with TCs and including their children. The Anan plan increased the number to 45. 000, your side excluded from that those who were married, and presented a list of 45. 000 excluding their children so the final number was actually in the range of 100. 000 +. So where did we agree? ? ? ?

You agreed 45.000 could stay, ask your leader for confirmation.

Governing system: A loose confederation, not A BB Federation.
Ruling: Totally impersonal, weak, with no authority whatsoever to impose decisions. A stateless State of 6 ministers…, a horrible and extremely costly law making process, a whole army of public servants.
Properties: GCs lose most of their properties.
Returning of GCs to their homes: Only the Famagustians could possibly return, and some elderly in other villages who would die soon anyway.
Settlers: All settlers would stay, possibility of even more coming.
Mingling of populations: No chance
Uniting the Country: No, it will be two separate countries in the form of protectorates of Greece and Turkey.
Security and demilitarisation: Totally flawed for upto 6 years, just bearable after 14 years.
EU Aquis: Totally in contradiction, risk of even been expelled from eU.
UN resolutions: trashed.
Economy: Totally collapsing, both Component states budget would always be in serious debit. The Federal State could not have a chance in a million undertaking the housing and relocating provisions of the Anan Plan.
These from just a quick memory review.

Come up with something better that will make both sides says yes. GC are all talk and no action they are the first slam or reject something but never put anything forward to resolve issues.

1) I repeat why your side does not enlist the issues where you said we had agreed in the past and carry on from there? Do you understand that by setting down the Anan Plan issues as the basis of negotiations that would mean a give and take on just those issues alone? And the final result could be nothing different than THAT plan?

Im not stating it should be used word for word of course those areas where you are unhappy will change and vise versa, but starting from stractch is not logical. The GCs have deamonized the plan to such an extent that they are having difficulties seperating what can stay and what should change.

2) I said it before and I repeat: Denktash spent 32 years wanting partition. Will Talat spend us another 32 years wanting disguised partition like the Anan Plan? Well it’s upto you to consider this. Because in the meantime the ones who pay are you the TCs and we the GC refugees. If we the GC refugees could do something, we would do it already…. It is you the TCs who have to act because, you don’t know what the next trick Turkey will invent to get rid of all of you. Who knows maybe they will decide to send all the Kurds there to solve the Kurdish problem! And don’t tell me Talat will pass a new law for visas. They can replace Talat any time they want.

Dont forget the difference Denktas was alone but Talat is supporting a UN EU and other nations backed plan. The ball is really in your court and its about time you realized that it is normally the person that rejects the plan that has to work hard to convince the side that accetped why they need to find an alternative solution. This I do not see from the GC side, all they do is critisize offering nothing to replace or be considered as alternatives to why they rejected the only solution that was put to referendum.

You can have your views about our leadership thats normal but your comments show you are extremly biased and cannot produce a constructive statement so it has no worth.

We are not blind nor stupid. If we let Turkey go through without oblidging we definetely lose, and rest all our hopes on the final date of her actual EU accession which btw may never happen. So if we are to exploit Turkeys EU road - which I repeat, odds are that will not end up to anything than a stong special relation - then we must use our weapons right now. Turkeys road has to be blocked very soon.

I for one do not believe that Turkey will get full membership, so any threats of blocking Turkeys path is like water off a ducks back. The public opinion in Turkey is waining against the EU and as long as the current negative air continues the Turks will not want the EU.

You tend to believe that Turkey will lose interest for the EU. I tell you Turkey has no other option. I can explain this further if you want. Just look at my previous post regarding "OR" else option. Turkey owes too much money to the Americans, the Americans owe too much money to the European Banks, the Americans act as the World Police on behalf of Europe they would never let Turkey become another headache for the World police "by letting her persue other paths". Do you now understand why we are not blind nor stupid?

Turkey has many other options , the east, Arab collialition, China, Russia, which would be disasterous for you guys as a disinterested Turkey means parititon forever. They will not severe realtions with the EU but the EU leverage will no longer be avaialble to you as the aspiration to become a full member would have been lost.

Ameicans owe more money to the Asians than they do the Europeans so against dont over estmate your (EU) own importnance, nothing is black and white.

But Turkey IS our enemy, this comes from current facts in Cyprus. It is an occupying force!

Ok admitidly Turkey maybe viewed as your enemy today but you should try to befriend her as she already does and will have a big influence on your future.

And this is exactly the reason Turkey will never become a full member. Ask the French and the Germans for further details. She will just end with a special relation….

I agree, but where will that leave you?

[Pyrpolizer]

You had the good sense to visit the north and had some first-hand experience with TC's. You judged them to be good people and felt the incidents of the 60's against these people were unjust. However, you are in the minority, most of your compatriots feel it would be criminal to cross over to the north. That is just plain hypocrisy.

My friend if you notice I only talked about positive experiences. Unfortunately the negatives were more. All these experiences (positive and negative) combined together are enough at the end of the day to take away your sleep for a night or two. I believe very few people can predict that and chose to avoid it, the majority can’t. The showing of passports and the issuing of a visa (!) is just the first negative shock. Too many others may follow, and I believe the people who refuse to go just because of the passport and visa thing, don’t really know what’s next, and they would really be shocked anyway even if the passport and visa thing was not there.

Everyone choses to go or not go for his/her own reasons. For example my wife never in her life visited Kyrenia or Morfou before 1974. For her it meant nothing to go see those places hence she did not go. I myself went alone there some other day. For me personally the people count very much. Wanted to meet TCs, even wanted to meet settlers, I met bussiness people from Turkey at Kyrenia etc etc.

Like I said I was very hapy to discover what kind of people the TCs are. Even the partitionists and the nationalists don’t differ at all from the GCs. Would you believe that I even met a TC who in the end told me he is a member of the Grey wolves? Would you believe that because he was a TC I could understand this guy, the same way I can understand a GC nationalist?

Anyway it is not true the majority of GCs did not go to the occupied. If my memory is correct by the end of 2004 about 60% of GCs went there. This is reasonable as most GCs are not refugeees anyway, plus the fact that most people from Limassol or Paphos never in their lives ever visited the northern areas even before 1974.

most of your compatriots feel it would be criminal to cross over to the north.

Absolutely not. I can assure you this is not so. You can ask any GC in this forum if he thinks my crossing to the occupied was criminal. What the vast majority of GCs think is that showing your passport to move inside your own country is wrong, but on the other hand this vast majority will acknowledge it is not my or any other GC’s fault. It is the fault of the ocupation regime.

The vast majority of GCs opinion is that if you don’t have a valid good reason to go, you shouldn’t go. That’s my opinion as well.

[boomerang]

I left Cyprus when I was 9 years old, in 1967 and I am from Limassol...

We lived in kind of mixed neighbourhood, well not evently mixed, but never the less mixed...

I clearly to this day I have memories of running to the dugouts during the period of 63 and 64 when the sirens when off during school...I also remember the men digging dug outs in back yards and I also remember that included everyone in the neighbourhood...We had no animosity towards our TCs compatriots.... they were also digging dug outs, and some were a join effort between 3 families...

As kids we used to play soccer, marbles, drawn backgammon on the footpath etc...we all got along fine...I still treasure those memories to this very day...and I often wonder what happened to the TC's...

So Pyrpolizer when you say you never met a TC before your visit to the North, how was that possible, unless you were born after 1974 or you were very young at the time...

[Pyrpolizer]

Is all the data available to TCs?

Yes all the data for expropriations is published in the Government Gazette. The RoC has to act in accordance with law because it is accountable for its actions. It is not a pseudo which has to account to noone.
By the date they expropriate a property they have to publish it because the money due to the owner are it’s value at that date +interest.
The RoC cannot hide anything, nor has any reason to hide.
They cannot even hide the fact that some TC properties at Polemidia/Limassol for builting government refugee settlements were not properly expropriated and they try to do it now by paying 20-30 times the original price. The owners are really lucky.

I urge EVERY TC to go check his properties personally. If he sees something builted on it, he should go straight to Denktash because Denktash has a record of all expropriations published in the Gazette. And check out for himself.

Now tell me what should the GCs do seeing the settlers not using them for living but actually selling them to foreigners?

[Pyrpolizer]

Were you there at the meeting?

No, they announced it publicly, and if weren’t true Talat wouldn’t miss the oportunity to nail Papadopoulos don’t you think?

This statement tells me you have not read the Annan plan and that you are talking rubbish. There was to be one central bank (article 36)with a branch in the north to be closed after a transition period, the currency was to be the Cyprus pound and therefore there could only be monetary policy. I rest my case many GCs just do not know the truth about the AP and only go on what they have read or been told.

I know the Anan Plan said ONE central Bank with 2 Branches. The question is whether the Anan Plan was clear on what those branches would do or not, and whether those branches would in fact constitute 2 other Central Banks working separately.

Heres what the Anan Plan says:

"The law may provide for the establishment of branches of the Central Bank in each constituent state, and for inclusion of branch directors in the Board of Directors of the Central Bank."

Here’s what Vasiliou (ex President) a fervent supporter of Anan Plan wrote in his study.
You can download it from: http://www.kema.com.cy

"In this respect we believe, even though in the Plan there is reference to the possibility of
creating two branches, that such action will be avoided at least at the beginning. Under
no circumstances can Cyprus afford to give the impression that in practice there are two
‘Central Banks’ as was the objective of the T/C side at the negotiations originally. If,
however, at some stage branches are created these should be charged with
administrative tasks only and under no circumstance with the supervision of the
Banking Sector which, as is well known, faces many problems in the North. For this
reason we also do not agree with the idea of the potential branch managers being
members of the Board.

And here’s what the advisors of RoC wrote in their report on February 2004:

"Economic Aspects of the Annan Plan for the Solution of the Cyprus ProblemReport
by
Barry Eichengreen
Riccardo Faini
Jόrgen von Hagen
Charles Wyplosz

…………..
The monetary arrangements foreseen by the Annan Plan are less than transparent. The Plan foresees a common currency and, consistent with this vision, a single central bank. Yet, it allows for accounting in euros and provides for central bank branches in the two constituent with undefined competences.

…………

The Plan also envisions consolidating central bank management and policy-making responsibilities within a single body over this transition. This is not in line with international best practice; it is highly undesirable even for a transitional period. A Board of Directors with responsibility for setting broad policy guidelines and supervising the central bank’s administration and a Monetary Policy Committee responsible for the day-to-day conduct of policy should be set up from the outset.

……………

"As the Annan Plan currently reads, the one central bank-one currency principle is undermined by a number of regrettable ambiguities that may encourage the circulation of parallel currencies in the T/C constituent state. While parallel currencies do not represent a threat to price stability, they would reduce the usefulness of the currency as a medium of exchange until the adoption of the euro. And they may threaten Cyprus’ ability to qualify for adoption of the single European currency if taken too far. For both reasons the ambiguous language of the Annan Report regarding these matters should be corrected. "


So if everybody disagreed with the creation of branches with so vague responsibilities both the advisors of RoC and the fervest supporters of the plan ex-President Vasiliou, how can you CLAIM THAT WE AGREED ON THE MATTER OF CENTRAL BANK WHEN WE NEVER AGREED NEITHER ACCEPTED THE CREATION OF BRANCHES

You agreed 45.000 could stay, ask your leader for confirmation.

This for you:

Were you there ….?

Turkey has many other options , the east, Arab collialition, China, Russia, which would be disasterous for you guys as a disinterested Turkey means parititon forever.

You should look at where currently Turkey owes money and whether those guys will accept Turkey to pay them back using money she will get by selling services to Russia and China.

I agree, but where will that leave you?

Exactly there, where it will leave YOU

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

No, they announced it publicly, and if weren’t true Talat wouldn’t miss the oportunity to nail Papadopoulos don’t you think?

Was it translated into Greek, dont forget the manipulation used by both sides.

With regards to the Central bank issue I was right it says one central bank with branches, this is not uncommon in the EU. The ambiguity will always exist no matter how full proof your try to make things and having the advantage of heinseight you can improve things. The imprtant thing is the sincerity and goodwill to make things work, if that does not exist you can sink and plan that you may feel is full proof.

You should look at where currently Turkey owes money and whether those guys will accept Turkey to pay them back using money she will get by selling services to Russia and China.

You should take some lessons in economics, money has no ethnic limitations or bounderies. Turkey is a resilient country she will survive with or without the EU.

Exactly there, where it will leave YOU

You have avoided the question yet again, as for us we would pretty much continue as we are the TRNC with relaxation of certain restrictions over a number of years.

[Pyrpolizer]

So Pyrpolizer when you say you never met a TC before your visit to the North, how was that possible, unless you were born after 1974 or you were very young at the time...

Hi boomerang,

Hey, I wasn’t living in a mixed town like you. I swear I never spoke with a TC before. Just a couple of times my mother or father spoke to someone who they said he was a TC, but I personally never had spoken to anyone nor even met anyone of my age. I had no idea what kind of people they were, honestly. One of my nephews though was going to the English School and he had TC classmates, but we prefered to talk about the English girls attending his school that anything else.

[Pyrpolizer]

With regards to the Central bank issue I was right it says one central bank with branches, this is not uncommon in the EU.

But this is not what you initially said. You said the matter of Central Bank was one of the matters WE AGREED. I told you we never agreed.
Whether the system would work or not is irrelevant. The expers advice was that Branches shouldn’t exist.

[Viewpoint]

With regards to the Central bank issue I was right it says one central bank with branches, this is not uncommon in the EU.

But this is not what you initially said. You said the matter of Central Bank was one of the matters WE AGREED. I told you we never agreed.
Whether the system would work or not is irrelevant. The expers advice was that Branches shouldn’t exist.

Your cnetral bank tecnocrats and central bank governor agreed it...

[Pyrpolizer]

Excuse me but are you trying to tell us you are some kind of Talat's assistant?
If yes then you should reveal your real name, otherwise stop backing your arguments with insinuations that you are some sort of insider...

:lol::lol: