Erol wrote:
I understood that you were claiming that the TC yes vote to the Annan plan equated to the TC consent to the RoC, without unification, entering the EU. If I misunderstood your argument then appologies. If not then I still argue that TC consent to the Annan plan can in no (reasonable) way be taken as TC communities consent for the RoC to enter the EU without a settlement.
Response:
I did not see any TCs demonstrating against RoC's application and acceptance in the EU. I saw them demonstrating against your leaders, who are still in power, and for a united Cyprus. The Annan plan was dictated by Turkey, not the TCs. That is what Turkey was willing to accept, that's what they voted. Anything better than the status quo would have been supported by the same number, whether it was called Annan plan or Osman plan.
The TCs are willing to enjoy the benefits of being part of the EU, as members of the interanationally accepted RoC, but cannot swallow the reality of the existence of the RoC.
The Cyprus problem was created with the 1960 treaties. Turkey and the TCs did not accept anything for 44 years, except proposed partition plans. As soon as they realized that RoC's EU prospect was not simply a dream, they devised their own plan, with the help of their friends. Their plan aimed to derail the Roc's EU train, or at least delay it until they could get on board also. To their dismay, they failed. The train no only left without them, the RoC was on board.
On Dec 17, Turkey will be given a chance for a train ticket for the next EU trip, only if she stops her efforts to bend the rules of the rail-system.
The RoC, this small patch of dirt that amounts to nothing, has as much power as the mighty UK has. Isn't this how you interpret your right to be "equal", in an RoC partnership, to have the power of a veto?
What good, is this power for, if you have it and refrain from using it in the only case you have full justification to do so?
Like your leaders speak about the "realities" north of the mine-fields, there are also realities in the south and beyond, beyond the coasts of Cyprus. Which are these realities about the RoC?
-The RoC was not dissolved before entering the EU, it will never be dissolved.
-The RoC is a full member of the EU and the UN.
-All Cypriots who carry an RoC passport are not only citizens of the RoC, but citizens of the EU.
-The RoC is represented and participates in the EU and internationally, through the funding of the taxpayer citizens of the RoC.
-The RoC is a contributor member of the EU. (Erol, you do not expect the RoC taxpayers to send money to help the economy of a country that does not have the decency to recognize the existence of her benefactors? Do you?)
In other words, the external issues of the RoC are settled and paid for - this is the reality, Erol, the EU clock cannot be turned back,(unless someone alludes the the RoC has WMDs
.
Erol wrote:
You seemed to be contending that Turkey could not refer to or use the 1960 agreements as any basis for future discussion because they are 'null and void'. If your position is the 1960 agreements are null and void then they are null and void in their entirety. You can not arbitarily say this part is null and void and this part is not, or they are void in these conditions but not void in others.
Response:
Turkey chose to ignore the 1960 agreements with a 30+ years occupation of part of Cyprus. The Annan plan, adopted by Turkey, has nothing to do with these agreements, it is a disguised legalization of a de facto partition.
Erol wrote:
Exactly. In the absense of agreement on changes they are either null and void in their entirety (in which case there is no RoC and no legal basis for British bases etc) or they still stand in their entirety. There is no 'half way house' (in legal terms).
Response:
They are null and void in the occupied part of Cyprus. Do you know of any GCs who use the government offices and the passports of Denktash? I do not need to tell you where the TCs go, when they need government or health services, do I?
Erol wrote:
The difference vbeing the answer is self evident to me. Namely the EU does not swallow GC propaganda that the only issue in Cyprus is the presence of Turkish forces and influence. They recognise what you seem to be refusing to recognise - that the issue is much deeper and more complex than that.
Response:
The human right abuses of Turkey and their racist ways, both within their country as well abroad, are very well known to all. Simply visit any human rights site. Propaganda is what Turkey does right now, by passing laws and reforms without implementing them.
Erol wrote:
They did what they thought was right at the time, based on a (false) assumption that it was TC intrasigence that was preventing a settlement. They have learn't the hard way that such an assment was in fact wrong. They have now beeen lumbered with a problem they did not expect to have when they agreed to entry of RoC with or without settelment. I have little doubt that if they could 'turn back the clock' they would not make the same decision again. I also have little doubt that many blame the RoC for this problem.
Response:
What they know and think about versus what they actually do or say, are not necessarily logical to you and me. What is important, is to understand that they always act in their best interests. They also know that what they may say is "fair and just" for someone else, may become "fair and just" and fair for themselves, one day. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." What I can bet on, is that before Turkey joins the EU, the veto will be abolished and a more democratic system will be adopted. By then, the UK will be a member of NAFTA, not the EU.
Erol wrote:
Are you sure you do not mean 'cut all your ties with the only ones who supported you in your direst hour of need and who represent your strongest allies so that GC will be more able to impose a solution that is to their liking and not yours'?
Response:
The European framework of the rule of law the aquis communautaire are what Turkey trying to adopt and conform to, right?. If they are good for Europe and Turkey, they should be good to all Cypriots also, without derogations and discrimination.
Erol wrote:
You claim I do not have a free and democratic voice in the North. I refute this. No one has ever put any pressure on me to vote any other way that I choose to.
Response:
I did not say that there TCs without special privileges. They are at least 35% of the lot. If I remember correctly, you voted "NO" to the referendum. Remind me why, please.
Erol wrote:
You want the TC to go back and request a return to a senario that led them into 11 years of tradgey (when no one seemed to care very much about the rule of law or human rights) and led to the events of 74? That would be patent madness even if blood had not been spent to protect us from that failure.
Response:
Are you the same person as you were at fifteen? I hope not! Remember two things, "you cannot have your cake, and eat it too" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Erol wrote:
The Cyprus issue remains the same as it did then. Will we and can we agree to live togeather in Cyprus on terms that we all agree are fair and just and that meet both sides concerns - or not. To me your 'line' that the Cyprus issue is merely about the presense of Turkish troops here does nothing to help solve the TRUE Cyprus problem and much to aid it's continuance. Are you prepared to share the island on terms that TC can accpet? If not are you prepared to sanction an agreed division? If you are not prepared to do either of these, then no amount of insistance that the 'only' problem in Cyprus today is the presence of Turkish troops will lead to true peace and harmony in Cyprus let alone real unity.
Response:
The Turkish occupation force, is like a cancerous tumor on the body of Cyprus. It needs to go, so the mind can think clearly. Things cannot change overnight, but they can. The people of Cyprus can live and prosper together, in peace, because they are not stupid. Yes there are fanatics on both sides, but these kind of groups exist in every country.
The European norm, can become the norm for Cyprus also. We do not have choice, if we decide to live together, without borders. Even if "they" decide that you can enter the EU as a separate country, you cannot avoid conformance with the EU common law. The EU does not build walls, it tears them down. This is what surprises the most, with Turkey's application, not the fact the EU is willing to accept her, but the fact that they want to get in. The Turkish generals will not give up their power, without a fight.
I proposed a "plan", in a different forum, long before the annan plan was finalized, before the opening of the gates.
My plan was to create a third zone (county), part of the RoC, say in Famagusta and Karpasia; to create jobs and invite in all progressive people, of both sides, to live and work together, and thus become the nucleus of the future Cypriot Society. The rest will follow.
