Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Insan,

I think I understand what you propose about property rights, and it still seems to me to be too open-ended ...

Everyone hated the Annan Plan because it was too vague, but what you propose for property rights is even more vague than the Annan Plan. You are saying that the Solution itself should have no provisions as to how to resolve disputes between current tenants and legal owners, and people should simply fight each other in court when the problem arises ...

I think the whole point of striving for a comprehensive settlement, is that such issues should be clearly resolved in advance, so that everybody knows exactly what they are getting into ...

I suppose there is room for disagreement as to how to balance the rights of current occupants with those of legal owners in a future Plan (Magikthrill obviously has a different opinion than myself, for instance), but whatever the final balance I believe that it should be clearly spelt out in the Peace Plan, so that, when people are voting to accept or reject the proposal, they will know exactly what they will and what they will not be getting.

[insan]

I suppose there is room for disagreement as to how to balance the rights of current occupants with those of legal owners in a future Plan (Magikthrill obviously has a different opinion than myself, for instance), but whatever the final balance I believe that it should be clearly spelt out in the Peace Plan, so that, when people are voting to accept or reject the proposal, they will know exactly what they will and what they will not be getting.

Ok. Before such a plan similar with what I proposed put in referandum, each sides administrations can call the refugees of their communities to apply to some relevant government offices in order to evaluate the claims and requests and determine its feasibility. If the result seems like feasible and big part of the problem can be solved by this method; so why not... ?Furthermore, I don't think any refugees would object the idea "freely decide what to do, if not satisfied apply to the courts."

[metecyp]

Ok. Before such a plan similar with what I proposed put in referandum, each sides administrations can call the refugees of their communities to apply to some relevant government offices in order to evaluate the claims and requests and determine its feasibility.

I don't think what you proposed is feasible. Obviously, all GC refugees want to return back or get compensated. Obviously, most TC refugees do not want to go back to the south. Nobody is going to reveal otherwise before a solution.

I agree with Alexandros that the solution must be clear and well-defined and it has to be final. This is the key. If some people get the feeling that the solution is not fair and seek for justice somewhere else, then the whole structure might collapse.

I understand your argument here but it will be very difficult to make "exceptions" for turkish settlers. Besides once they leave, they're Turkey's problem - not Cypriots'.

I wish this issue was as simple as you suggested, magikthrill. I have a friend from high school that I've know for more than 10 years. I always thought she was truly Cypriot because she was just so Cypriot in everything she did. But last year I discovered that her mom is from Turkey and she came to Cyprus right after 1974. It kind of shocked me because I always thought settlers and their children were so different and easy to recognize.

There are many cases like this where the children of settlers are truly integrated in the society and they have no life other than what they have in Cyprus. Now how can you "ship" these people back?

[erolz]

Are you sure of that, erolz?

Yes Insan I am sure that the mainland settelers are 'weak' as a group realtive to any other group, including the GC refugess. I just do not see how you can argue that they are not. There is no doubt in my mind that they are economically weaker on average (and this is AFTER you take into consideration that which they were given). It is also the case that in terms of the numbers of MP's that are from this group they are massively under represented politicaly. Also if they are not 'weaker' than other groups in terms of representation in general then where is their voice HERE on this forum? If they are 50% (or more) of the TC population and equaly 'strong' as a group then why is there not a single TC mainland settler particpating in this forum.

If a united Cyprus can only be created by the forced expulsion of this group then I would have to seriously consider if I would continue to wish to live here as a Cypriot.

[brother]

If someone is born to a country that automatically makes them a resident, as such these settlers who came 30 years ago also have that right as like other forum members stated they know no other life hence i think they have the right to stay the only thing i find hard to stomach is the free land and homes they were given, this they will have to forgo and do what the rest of us have to and buy their own properties, i never got anything free of charge and like everyone else i had to work for it and like my family who left all their land in the south worked and bought it.

I think this is probably the biggest sticking point for all cypriots not only were lands that do not belong to us were distrubuted to settlers but we gave it to them free of charge.

This is what the problem is as pre 1974 cypriots in majority owned their lands and homes hence in settlement we all get what we lost but the settlers NEVER owned any property in cyprus and as such are not entitled to them.

[Alexandros Lordos]

mikkie2,

You say that only 18% of the 70,000 Greek Cypriots would have the right to return (under the Annan Plan) ... surely you mean 18% of 200,000? The number 18% is a percentage of the TC population, not of the GC refugee population. In fact, the real percentage is 33%, which is what will apply when Turkey joins the EU. 33% of 200,000 is 67,000 so theoretically almost all refugees would eventually have the right of return.

Ofcourse, beside this small factual disagreement, I fully agree with you that the current provisions of the Plan do not create viable settlements for the return of GCs under TC administration. On the one hand, the time tables are prohibitive and really take the steam out of any potential relocation, and on the other hand, the Property Rights issue is not satisfactorily resolved ... GCs returning in the north would feel like second class citizens. Thirdly, the plan currently lacks provisions to guarantee that the education of GCs living in the north would not be under TC control ... and this ofcourse is unacceptable to most GCs.

I think that it is possible to guarantee the right of return for all refugees, without dissolving bizonality and without encroaching on TC rights. But must it absolutely be a return to their original home? Frankly, I don't understand why it cannot be another home, brand new, and built especially for them in the same town/village ...

Let's not forget that a massive number of TCs would have to relocate anyway because of the solution (ie those living in Morphou, Karpasia, and other areas that will be given over to GC administration or self-rule). If we insist that GC refugees from the TC zone also take priority control of their property over the current TC occupants, then we reach a situation where almost every TC will have to relocate because of the solution.

[-mikkie2-]

Alex,

Ok, perhaps I will need to re-read the plan. I was under the impression that the numbers were based on the % of GC refugees that could return.

As we both agree though, the pecking order for property restitution does not favour the refugees so in all probablility, very few would be able to return.

[mehmet]

I can't agree that for governments to force people out of somewhere they have lived and regard as their home in order to redress an injustice caused 30 years ago by the political situation that existed then is a way for a civilised society to behave. When we finish with the mainlanders who we gonna pick on next? the Pontian Greeks? what about the British and other foreigners? and when we get rid of the foreigners who are the supposed to be the problem we're gonna look for enemies within our own society.

[Piratis]

I can't agree that for governments to force people out of somewhere they have lived and regard as their home in order to redress an injustice caused 30 years ago by the political situation that existed then is a way for a civilised society to behave. When we finish with the mainlanders who we gonna pick on next? the Pontian Greeks? what about the British and other foreigners? and when we get rid of the foreigners who are the supposed to be the problem we're gonna look for enemies within our own society.

So in civilized societies if you manage to keep something you stole for long enough it becomes yours? What kind of civilization is this?

[mehmet]

You comment about something I didn't write. I never said nothing about anyone keeping anything that was stolen. I said what I said,