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What does "united Cyprus" mean to you?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

What does "united Cyprus" mean to you?

Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:25 am

There are some words like "unity", "fair" etc that apparently mean different things to different people.

For me, and I believe to the majority of Greek Cypriots, unity means a one country one people kind of unity. So that the end result will be one country like one country is UK, France, Turkey, Bulgaria, Russia etc.

However I came to the unfortunate conclusion that for the majority of TCs the word "unity" means some sort of EU unity within Cyprus, so that "North" and "South" will be "united" more or less in the way that Italy and Finland are "united" within the European Union.

Here are some of the factors that made me come to this conclusion:

1) TCs insist that the northern part of our country is their own. All they accept is to allow a small GC minority within "their" state/"country". This can not exist in a single united country. Even in Federations (e.g. USA, Russia) people are free to move and become residents with full rights of any state they want.

2) They insist on a power sharing scheme that exists only in associations of separate independent countries. For example when I tell them the obvious, that it is undemocratic to have 18% people having 50% power and a veto power on everything, and I ask them to give me another country were such thing exists, the example they usually come up with is the one of EU saying something like "how can Cyprus then can have a veto in EU". This is another clear indication that the kind of "unity" they want is one between separate countries as it exists within the EU countries and not a one country kind of unity.

3) They insist on things like "rotating presidency" between the two communities. Such thing exists only in separate country associations (e.g. EU) and not within single countries.

4) Not many of them seem to be bothered by the "trnc" which in affect pretends to be a separate country within Cyprus, and many of them even see "unity" as the cooperation of "trnc" and Republic of Cyprus.

I believe that TCs that understand "unity" more or less as described above are the great majority of them. Then there is a minority which doesn't even want any kind of association with the "south" (e.g. Denctash) and another minority which includes people like Sevgul Uludag who want a one country unity.

Here is again a quote from Sevgul which is relevant to how the majority of TCs realize "unity"

The main problem concerning `reunification` of the island for the mainstream Turkish Cypriot media is that it is subconsciously based on `two separate entities coming together`, not seeing that this is a remnant of `Taksim` policies… The focus is on `Bizonality` and with this, the `legitimization` of `the results of 1974`… No one is contesting that any future cooperation of our communities should be based on multiculturalism, rather than on the `hegemony` of the Greek Cypriot community in all fields… But how `bizonality` is perceived is a big problem because deep down, the ideology of `Taksim` is still there and has not been wiped out from the subconscious thinking of `duality` and `separatism` from the minds of some mainstream Turkish Cypriot journalists.


As I said many times before the first step for any agreed solution is agreeing on the aim. If we both say "unity" and we mean two totally different things, then how could a solution that will be accepted by both sides ever be found?
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Postby cypezokyli » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:46 am

1) TCs insist that the northern part of our country is their own. All they accept is to allow a small GC minority within "their" state/"country". This can not exist in a single united country. Even in Federations (e.g. USA, Russia) people are free to move and become residents with full rights of any state they want.

2) They insist on a power sharing scheme that exists only in associations of separate independent countries. For example when I tell them the obvious, that it is undemocratic to have 18% people having 50% power and a veto power on everything, and I ask them to give me another country were such thing exists, the example they usually come up with is the one of EU saying something like "how can Cyprus then can have a veto in EU". This is another clear indication that the kind of "unity" they want is one between separate countries as it exists within the EU countries and not a one country kind of unity.


read the bosnian constitution.
its resemblance to what is proposed in cyprus is simply amazing.

that is how the international community decided to solve a problem, similar to ours in a number of respects. i am not saying that this is right or wrong , but it has created an example on what the UN understands by "unity" and "fairness". we shouldnt ignore that because it shows a lot what the international community (individual countries, the UN, mediators etc) considers as possible solutions to cases like ours and bosnia.

all i am saying is that the argument that such a plan has not been used anywhere else in the world is simply not true.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:07 am

I don't know about Bosnia, but I don't know anybody who would want to turn Cyprus into Bosnia!!

When searching for "Bosnian constidution" I came across this article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/ ... 14,00.html

It is from 2005 and it talks about a new constidution that was drafted for Bosnia by the US.
Here are some points from that article:

What exist(ed):

Bosnia currently has one of the most complicated and wasteful systems of government ever devised. It is split into two ethnic halves, a Bosnian Serb republic and a federation of Muslims and Croats, both with their parliaments and governments. There is then a national parliament, presidency, prime minister and government. Over the past 10 years, the ethnic entities have enjoyed strong powers, with central authority weak, albeit strengthened in recent years largely as a result of Lord Ashdown's initiatives.


What was in the proposal:

At the blueprint's centre is an emphasis on individual human and civil rights, supplanting the previous accent on the privileges of the rival ethnic collectives.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:14 am

And by the way, I don't want my country to be turned into a guinea pig of how countries can be split (to be applied in Iraq and elsewhere later on by the modern colonialists).

Cyprus belongs to Cypriots, and we should fight for our right to create on our island a normal modern democratic EU country that will bring peace and prosperity to all its citizens. Those that want anything else they should go and apply it to their own countries, not to screw up ours even more.
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Postby cypezokyli » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:20 am

interesting article.
it would be even more interesting if we knew what happenned to the proposals. that is if the 2 (or practically 3) sides accepted them. if there are any news on the above i would be extremelly interested.

the bosnian constitution is here if anyone is intereted
http://www.oscebih.org/overview/gfap/eng/default.asp

(in many points i had the feeling that when making the AP they were simply copy-pasting)
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:30 am

it would be even more interesting if we knew what happenned to the proposals. that is if the 2 (or practically 3) sides accepted them. if there are any news on the above i would be extremelly interested.

The constidution that you gave has a date December 1995. If this is still the constidution of Bosnia then the proposals of 2005 were not implemented and Bosnia still has "one of the most complicated and wasteful systems of government ever devised". Therefore I am not amazed when you say that they were copyng several things from that constidution to make Annan plan.
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Postby reportfromcyprus » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:34 am

There are different levels of unity in a country, I think.

The political level - a political system that fairly represents all the country's communities and functions within rules, checks and balances and acts effectively to control social problems like crime and drug misuse. It's important that the government is trusted by the people so that it has the support it needs to be effective. The Federal and State system in the US is a good example. Each state administers its business, but there's an over-arching 'bigger picture' government. Corruption is a big dis-unifying factor.

The social level - for a society to be unified, it has to have unbiased educational standards, high standards of media reporting (because they are so influential) and proper medical facilities for all residents. Needless to say, people will feel unified if they feel they have a fair chance to lead a good life.

Finally, there needs to be a unifying cause, something that all the residents in the country relate to and work towards. Economic gain / higher education / fighting crime - it could be many things, but anything other than separation!
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Postby cypezokyli » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:40 am

The constidution that you gave has a date December 1995. If this is still the constidution of Bosnia then the proposals of 2005 were not implemented and Bosnia still has "one of the most complicated and wasteful systems of government ever devised". Therefore I am not amazed when you say that they were copyng several things from that constidution to make Annan plan.

true....

but they have a united country.

..........
good points reportfromcyprus
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Postby reportfromcyprus » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:44 am

More specifically, unity in Cyprus means the smooth functioning of the political and social systems in a way that represents all residents. Proportional representation might be the way to go, but there are too many problems associated with this - turkish settlers, displaced populations etc.

I think unity in Cyprus lies with the political leadership. When they get negotiating and handling things properly instead of scoring points and living in the past, we might get closer to improving our lives.
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Postby reportfromcyprus » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:47 am

Thanks cypezokyli. It's just us debating this morning :)
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