Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Kikapu says:

It's very simple. Absolute power corrupts, so for the benefit of the whole country, it is better to have checks and balances from both communities. Under normal conditions and situation, it could operate like any other Democratic country. The problem is, we have not earned each others trust yet, due to our very recent history together.

Kikapu, this is clearly a contradiction. If you are not a minority group and therefore not a separate group at all, then you would not need these very separate powers! We can have checks and balances; but if you are separating and distinguishing the communities; then you have to accept that your community is a minority in Cyprus, simple as that.

As a way of compromise, I would accept Kifeas' Plan.

Simon,

TC,s are a minority, but only in numbers and not a minority as a citizens of Cyprus, so that's why they reject to be protected only with "minority rights". Since the TC's have been grouped together now, for the last 32 years, naturally, they have also become a community. Being a community should not make them just a "minority" without any rights to participate in the decision making of the peoples business by the government, because foremost, they are Cypriot Citizens, before anything else (not including the settlers).

In any case, why split hair. You agree with the "Kifeas Plan", so lets move onto other pressing matters that Soto raised couple of posts back. I really hope, that we all understand, that Cyprus problems is not an easy problem to solve. Not with a "Unity Cyprus" or a "Partition". Each have their own difficulties, if we spend to much time arguing on every little detail. At some point, we will have to accept the best possible solution to benefit maximum number of Cypriot citizens, and do the very best to the rest of the citizens, to normalize their lives, as soon as possible. There's no magic "silver bullet". It's no wonder that the "Annan Plan" was pages and pages long, and I expect, the next one will be just as long.

A minority /majority issue can only exist in terms of numbers. There is no meaning to a concept such as “minority as citizens.” Such a notion doesn’t exist! There is no modern western democratic country in which not all of its citizens are equal to each other! The whole discussion is absurd!

Furthermore, I do not understand this TC paranoia with the issue of being a (numerical) minority. They regard the mere word or term as some kind of an anathema. As if to belong to a minority group it means you are some kind of a leper, or an inferior human being, or not an equal citizen with all he rest at the same time. As if for example the Greek-American citizens of the US, who if taken separately will only constitute less 1% of the total US citizen's population, are by default an inferior or less equal on an individual level with the Italian-American citizens who if take together may constitute perhaps 4% of the total US population, or they are second class citizens to the Anglo-Saxon American citizens that if taken separately may constitute more than 50% of the US population. Yet, some 15 years ago the US nearly had a Greek-American president (Michael Dukakis) and 35 years ago the US had a Greek-American vice-president. The previous CIA director (George Tenet) was a Greek-American. Can the Greek-Americans claim that they are a second class group of US citizens, even though they are as an ethnic group, a minority of less than 1%? Have they been prohibited from calling themselves Greek-Americans, speak their language and run their Greek language schools, fly the Greek flag everywhere in their private association buildings, homes and public holidays, or to practice their religion and have their churches? The answer is no! Therefore, in which way they differ, in terms of rights or equality, from the Anglo-Saxon Americans that constitute more than 50% of the total?

[Kikapu]

A minority /majority issue can only exist in terms of numbers. There is no meaning to a concept such as “minority as citizens.” Such a notion doesn’t exist! There is no modern western democratic country in which not all of its citizens are equal to each other! The whole discussion is absurd!

Furthermore, I do not understand this TC paranoia with the issue of being a (numerical) minority. They regard the mere word or term as some kind of an anathema. As if to belong to a minority group it means you are some kind of a leper, or an inferior human being, or not an equal citizen with all he rest at the same time. As if for example the Greek-American citizens of the US, who if taken separately will only constitute less 1% of the total US citizen's population, are by default an inferior or less equal on an individual level with the Italian-American citizens who if take together may constitute perhaps 4% of the total US population, or they are second class citizens to the Anglo-Saxon American citizens that if taken separately may constitute more than 50% of the US population. Yet, some 15 years ago the US nearly had a Greek-American president (Michael Dukakis) and 35 years ago the US had a Greek-American vice-president. The previous CIA director (George Tenet) was a Greek-American. Can the Greek-Americans claim that they are a second class group of US citizens, even though they are as an ethnic group, a minority of less than 1%? Have they been prohibited from calling themselves Greek-Americans, speak their language and run their Greek language schools, fly the Greek flag everywhere in their private association buildings, homes and public holidays, or to practice their religion and have their churches? The answer is no! Therefore, in which way they differ, in terms of rights or equality, from the Anglo-Saxon Americans that constitute more than 50% of the total?

Quiet right Kifeas. That's why I was saying , lets not split hair from being a "numerical minority" or a "community minority". TC's should accept a plan like the one you proposed based on the numerical %'s, to have their say in a decision making progress. What you have proposed, takes care of the "minority issue" questions, that each community depends on each other to make a system work, and not rely on the other "side" only to decide their future for them.

[Simon]

Miltiades said:

"Simon , do you not see that you are the one predominantly who blatantly """are separating and distinguishing the communities ""

Do you not see that the exhibiting by the majority of Hellenistic tendencies is influencing the T/Cs to be even closer to Turkey ? What has to be seen and accepted by all is that unless Cypriots from both communities make an effort or at least recognise that in order to overcome the fundamental obstacles facing us , these obstacle must be removed or at least reduced to an insignificant proportions.

I hope you do not misinterpret my views , Im , as I said many times before , a Greek Cypriot just as you are , but first and foremost I'm a Cypriot. I'm not , and neither are you a Greek Greek , we share the language , religion , most but not all of our culture , geographically we are distant , where by with the T/Cs we share our culture , and we share the most important aspect which of course is Cyprus.

Ask your self , would a T/C trust you to make peace with or the Miltiades of this Island . And be honest."

I see you are chatting your usual rubbish. How am I separating the communities? Am I demanding disproportional rights for each community? Have I called 37% of Cyprus Turkish and installed 40,000 Turkish troops in Cyprus? Have I voted for or promoted the Annan Plan? Have I installed thousands of settlers on Cyprus? Was I even alive at the time of the coup and when Turkey killed and removed thousands from their homes? NO IS THE ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS.

I live in the UK, so if your only accusation against me is the Greek flag on my avatar, and you believe this is separating the communities in Cyprus, then it is obvious to me that you are dillusional. By the way, not that I have to explain myself to you, but I have relatives from Greece also and I have Greek (from Greece) blood running through my veins also. So I have the right to display any flag I wish.

To Kifeas and Kikapu:

I agree that there is no concept of "minority of citizens." It was not me that was even questioning this ridculous idea but Kikapu. All I was pointing out is that TCs are wrong when they make the ridiculous suggestion that their community is not numerically smaller and consequently, they are not a minority.They say this because they want 50% of all decision-making institutions, and this would be clearly undemocratic to GCs, who represent 82% of Cyprus. However, I accept that TCs should be involved in decision-making.

[Kikapu]

. All I was pointing out is that TCs are wrong when they make the ridiculous suggestion that their community is not numerically smaller and consequently, they are not a minority..

Simon,

I don't know any TC's that does not accept the fact, that we are a "Minority". What we don't want is to be given a status of having " protected minority rights" without having some control of our destiny, just as much as the GC's want to control their destiny. We don't want a "hand out" from the majority.

[Simon]

Trust me Kikapu, I have heard many who have tried to deny that you are a minority. The rest of your post I accept and have never disagreed with.

[miltiades]

Then perhaps Simon you may ask your Greek relations as to why their Government refused to accept Cyprus from the British in 1915 and 1923 . Look young arrogant Greek , Cyprus will unite when all its people fly the Cypriot flag , if you can not get that in your tiny little head then stay off the politics of Cyprus and concentrate on the political scene in Greece.

You state that I post rubbish , is it rubbish to want my island to be united with all its people as Cypriots first.
Is it rubbish to recognise that the cancer eating away our Inland is nationalistic bullshit from both sites. Is it rubbish to ask those that do not respect the Cypriot nationality to piss off to their respective motherlands.
I'm a Cypriot , mate you are not.
You already in a previous post made that perfectly clear , I can see where you are coming from , the type that calls its compatriots " i kiprei " separating their selves from their real roots.

[Simon]

There you go, chatting your usual crap. DO NOT PATRONISE ME OLD MAN!!!

Firstly, I am not GREEK, but Greek-Cypriot. Secondly, Greece did not reject Cyprus you idiot!! Lets look at facts:

British Foreign Minister Eden told Greek PM in Sept 1953 that there was no Cyprus problem to be discussed when the PM was asking for enosis. In July 1954, British Cabinet Paper concluded, "We must therefore, act on the assumption that deterioration in our relations with Greece is the price we must pay if we are to keep Cyprus. A point may even come at which we would have to decide whether Cyprus is more strategically important to us than Greece." More brutally, Eden put the question thus: "No Cyprus, no certain facilities to protect our supply of oil. No oil, unemployment and hunger in Britain. It is as simple as that."

Does this sound like a country that wanted to give Cyprus to Greece and which Greece rejected?

OK, but you have mentioned two specific earlier dates, so lets look at them. Granted, Cyprus was offered to Greece in 1915 if Greece joined the First World War. Greece did later join, but Britain stated that they had joined too late!! This I believe is one of the instances you are talking about - HERE GREECE DID NOT REJECT CYPRUS! They were simply worried about the cost of war, something we indeed know too much about. In 1923, Greece did not reject Cyprus either. Under the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923, Turkey formally ceded Cyprus to Britain, which declared in a Crown Colony in 1925. During this time, I have read or heard nothing which says that Cyprus was offered to Greece. Even if it were, Greece was in such a mess during 1923 because of the Asia Minor disaster, with over a million refugees to deal with, that they would never have been able to cope with Cyprus at that time. In 1878, when Britain first established control in Cyprus, General Wosley stepped ashore in Cyprus and was welcomed by archbishop Kition with a request that Cyprus be handed to Greece. He was rejected. In 1828, modern Greece's first President, Count Kapodistria, called for the union of Cyprus with Greece, and various uprisings took place in Greece at that time (Op.ct., Nicolson, p35). Does this sound like a country that did not want Cyprus? Why would they have bothered with the coup in 1974?

CAN I ALSO JUST STATE THAT I HAVE NO IDEA WHY YOU HAVE BROUGHT THIS UP! DO YOU STILL HARBOUR HOPES OF ENOSIS MILTIADES?


Miltiades said:

"You state that I post rubbish , is it rubbish to want my island to be united with all its people as Cypriots first.
Is it rubbish to recognise that the cancer eating away our Inland is nationalistic bullshit from both sites. Is it rubbish to ask those that do not respect the Cypriot nationality to piss off to their respective motherlands.
I'm a Cypriot , mate you are not.
You already in a previous post made that perfectly clear , I can see where you are coming from , the type that calls its compatriots " i kiprei " separating their selves from their real roots."

I said you are posting rubbish because you were saying I am dividing the communities. THAT IS RUBBISH FOR REASONS I HAVE PREVIOUSLY POSTED. Surely you can understand this if you are indeed capable of following an argument logically. You are not Cypriot anymore, you are a self-confessed Brit so just shut up and enjoy your 'adopted country.'

[miltiades]

You are a rude individual and an arrogant one too. Your totally blind of realities. It is the likes of you that have caused and are continuing to cause the division of our island. Being as you are , religious , you fall easily into the category of , as I stated earlier , "ellas , ellinon , xristianon ". You do not see that your avatar of a FOREIGN Flag might , just might , convince a large number of T/Cs that remaining divided is the best option while there are people such as you punk , who are not dedicated to a united Cyprus but want to be part of Greece , anathema to the T/Cs and to me too. You make an issue of "OLD MAN " As I said to another idiot in another thread , I made it to 60 punk , will you ! I have achieved the utmost in my life by becoming a grandfather and by seeing my children develop into respectable citizens. Will you ? You are far to conceited to examine your views and accept that you Young man are wrong. You say :
"""Even if it were, Greece was in such a mess during 1923 because of the Asia Minor disaster, with over a million refugees to deal with, that they would never have been able to cope with Cyprus "" This I understand to mean that Greece's primary priorities were , just as they were in 1974 , ones of self preservation.

You state your not exhibiting separatist views , why dont you give your heart to Cyprus just as the two T/Cs I mentioned earlier did , and I will humbly offer my apologies to you and my utmost respect. The Cyprus flag is the one that our nation has in Europe , in the UN and in all other international events that require a nations identity.
It is the flag that can unite our two communities not drive them apart.

[Simon]

Firstly, I could not care less whether I make it to 60 or not. It is generally not my choice when I die. Do you think you are better than others, because you have lived longer? When I die, I believe I will live once more. Whereas you my OLD friend, will be dead forever.

I am rude and arrogant? You are a conceited old man who believes that just because he has a bit of experience in life (and 60 years is by no means a long time) you are automatically correct. You was rude to me first Sir.

I am blind of realities? This is coming from the old fool that believes that the USA and Britain are the angels of the world and everyone else are the bad guys. You've seen too many American movies.

It is the likes of me? You don't even know me, so do not include me into your pathetic little stereotypes. I have said time and time again I am for reunification on proportional power-sharing. So how the hell am I separating anything? I will keep my Greek flag as long as TCs keep their Turkish one in the North and call the North Turkish - simple as that. The Cypriot flag is no longer the flag of the TCs anymore anyway! My flag is not stopping any of the negotiations, and once we get a fair solution, I will gladly remove it. I would prefer to see what type of solution we get first. If we are forced to accept something like the AP, then we should consider formal partition and create our own flag anyway.

People like you are more fascist than we might think. You are clearly a bigot when it comes to people having religious beliefs, just because they do not fit into your little world. Yes I believe in God and that has nothing to do with you or Cyprus, so why do you keep bringing it up? Does it make you uncomfortable? Tough luck!

I make an issue of you being an old man because you make an issue of me being a young one! Quite simple when you think about it. Furthermore, I already am a respectable citizen, if you think respectable means no criminal record, great family, great friends, great job, earning good money and having self-respect. Big deal, you are a Grandad and have brought up a few kids, I guess that makes you a great human-being. GET OVER YOURSELF!

Your views on Greece are pathetic to say the least. You do not analyse things logically at all, but are far to blinded by your hatred of Greece to have any reasoning in your arguments. How could Greece have accepted Cyprus in 1923? The country was a mess. Furthermore, I still have seen no evidence that Cyprus was offered in the first place. Of course their priority was of self-preservation, the priority of every single living entity on earth is self-preservation! What a ridiculous thing to ask! If Greece wasn't preserved, there would have been nothing for Cyprus to join!

[miltiades]

""When I die, I believe I will live once more. Whereas you my OLD friend, will be dead forever. ""
Amd pigs will be flying too.!

""I make an issue of you being an old man because you make an issue of me being a young one! Quite simple when you think about it. Furthermore, I already am a respectable citizen, if you think respectable means no ""criminal record, great family, great friends, great job, earning good money and having self-respect. Big deal, you are a Grandad and have brought up a few kids, I guess that makes you a great human-being. GET OVER YOURSELF! """
Yes it does !

""Your views on Greece are pathetic to say the least. You do not analyse things logically at all, but are far to blinded by your hatred of Greece to have any reasoning in your arguments. ""

I do not hate Greece , just would rather be independent from Greece for the sake of my Island's prosperity and stability. I have tremendous respect for all that Greece gave the world , The fundamental principles of Western world democracy are none other than the precious gifts that were handed down from the ancient Greeks.
It is a shame that the modern day Greeks do not retain much from their ancestors , look at the treatment of minorities , look at the contemptious animosity they have for their own misfortunate citizens , look at how many
of the rich and powerful care for Cyprus. Greece is a nation of selfish money driven corrupt beaurocrats who do not give a monkeys for Cyprus. They rejected us twice and they have done us a great favour.
I suggest that they , the Greeks , should be out in the streets of Athens , Salonika , demonstrating and shouting union with Cyprus, we will of course reject them , they are just not good enough.

""I make an issue of you being an old man because you make an issue of me being a young one! ""
At 60 I , along with the millions of 60 year olds , Mick , Keith(Rolling stones ) McCartney , Tom Jones , Cliff ,
Bill Clinton , Sean Connery and many others would refute your comments "old man " not that it matters to me since at 60 I have matured into a wise individual with no hung ups , just madly in love with my nation and all its people. The day will come , when Cyprus will receive the key of the door and proudly it will display the Cypriot identity without the fear of being referred to as """chatting your usual crap ""