Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Piratis

It was first claimed that 160, 000 were rmade homelss. This figure is now 200, 000

It was claimed 2000 gc lost their lives during Turkish intervention, The next figure we got was 4,000. 2,000 was the figure claimed as a result of gc fighting gc in the coup. The next figure we were given was 4,000 as a result of the intervention, which is 2,000 as a result of the coup plus 2,000 as a result of the intervention.

As for the ottomans, well you can cite any fiGure you wish, none of us were there at the tim, execpt you and you sources. i wasn't there so i wont dispute any figure at all.

So its settled then is it 2,000 ooops i mean 4,000 died when the turks came, and 200, 000 lost their homes. ok fine.


Now tell us, if you had to have been in Cyprus pre 74 to claim your south cyprus land back , then only people over the age of forty (granted that they were two years old in 1974) can now claim it. So anyone being over the age of thirty (REASONABLE AGE FOR LAND OWNER) in 1974 can now claim their land back. So does the govt seriously think that a seventy year old is now going to bother with it. If they dont claim it who does it belong to? any decendant not in Cyprus pre 1974 can not claim it. Therefore anyone under the age of forty two, (about 50% of any community) can not claim their parents' land?

Of course now that figure will increase year by year until no tc can claim
their land.

Nice one Piratis, another greek theatrical masterpeice.

Bravo encore more.......

And you expect tcs to put themselves back under the gc democratic system?


you got a long long wait.

Does anyone know what Rolo is talking about here, since I cannot figure it out my self? Rolo, what is your thesis that prompted you to write all the above in order to defend it?

[Alexis]

Now tell us, if you had to have been in Cyprus pre 74 to claim your south cyprus land back , then only people over the age of forty (granted that they were two years old in 1974) can now claim it. So anyone being over the age of thirty (REASONABLE AGE FOR LAND OWNER) in 1974 can now claim their land back. So does the govt seriously think that a seventy year old is now going to bother with it. If they dont claim it who does it belong to? any decendant not in Cyprus pre 1974 can not claim it. Therefore anyone under the age of forty two, (about 50% of any community) can not claim their parents' land?

Kifeas, I think what rolo is referring to is stuballstu's assertion that if you are a TC but were not the original landowner of land in the south (but a descendant) or were not on your land prior to 1974 (but say prior to 1963) you cannot claim your land back in the south under the current laws.
Of course this is regrettable and imo the RoC should be doing all it can to accommodate TCs who would like to claim their land back. However, in practice there are always going to be limits to what the RoC can do realistically. The facts are that Turkey took way too much land in 1974 displacing far more GCs that TCs. The land in the north is enough to accommodate double the TC population and then more. What does this mean? In practice it means that the south has by definition had much greater refugee problem than the north and therefore has had to use the TC land in the south to accommodate the GC refugees. The TRNC has also had to do this but, and again by definition has had more than enough land to accommodate its refugees whilst the RoC has not had. I think it is reasonable that both sides refrain from allowing refugees to claim land back until a settlement is reached. The only problem is that a settlement is not being reached. Now, if the TRNC turned round tomorrow and adopted the same policy as the RoC what would happen?
This is a very tricky situation for both administrations but particularly for the RoC as she does not have the surplus land to place refugees that the TRNC has. It's easy to turn round and criticise, but what exactly would you doi if you were the RoC, or for that matter the TRNC? You simply cannot give all the land back without a political settlement to go with it, this is why the TRNC does not give back any land and quite clearly also why the RoC has such strict rules with regards reclaiming property.

[Piratis]

Rolo, the figures are there and they are undeniable. Only Turks deny them. But then again Turks deny many other obvious things. E.g. they deny that the pseudo state of "trnc" is illegal, they deny that the only legal state in Cyprus is RoC, they deny the genocide of the Armenians, the call their invasion that killed 6000 people and ethnically cleansed 200.000, a "peace operation" etc.

You apparently choose the Turkish ridiculous lies instead of the truth. Thats not my problem but yours.

Now tell us, if you had to have been in Cyprus pre 74 to claim your south cyprus land back , then only people over the age of forty (granted that they were two years old in 1974) can now claim it. So anyone being over the age of thirty (REASONABLE AGE FOR LAND OWNER) in 1974 can now claim their land back. So does the govt seriously think that a seventy year old is now going to bother with it. If they dont claim it who does it belong to? any decendant not in Cyprus pre 1974 can not claim it. Therefore anyone under the age of forty two, (about 50% of any community) can not claim their parents' land?

What are you talking about???

If The Turks end their illegal occupation today, then all people (GCs and TCs) can take their land immidietly.
Who is stopping this? The answer is the Turkish army along with their puppet state in Cyprus. So whats your problem with Greek Cypriots????

[Damsi]

The greed of the property developers may drive out the expats who buy Greek Cypriot land in the north a lot quicker than the courts. Getting ripped off is a powerful incentive.

Under the title “What about the real victims?” Turkish Cypriot daily CYPRUS TIMES newspaper (05.08.06) reports the following, by Marian Stokes:
“The Homebuyers Pressure Group has been reading with interest the recent published articles regarding Gary John Robb and his stolen/frozen assets and, if it all true, then we fell very sorry for him. But there is no mention of the real victims –the property buyers. Who feels sorry for the people who have paid for their properties a long time ago and are still waiting for them to be completed?
What about the buyers who should now be living in their Aga house, have moved all their possessions here on the promise of a completion date and are now in rented accommodation for the unforeseeable future. What about all the people who have bought from other Construction Companies and are suffering the same financial loss and stress?

They are the real victims of the recent property boom. And who cares about them? It appears that nobody does.

Some of the Aga properties have been sold to two, and sometimes three, people and their Sales Agreements have been prepared by the same lawyer!! Who will decide which of these multiple buyers actually gets the property and which of these buyers now wants the property?

Will any of them get a refund of monies paid, plus interest? Probably not. The scenario is not just applicable to Aga buyers. Some builders we know have no intention of passing title to any buyers who have paid in full for their property. They just want to sell the houses over and over again to keep their bank accounts topped up or perhaps to buy the latest fashion car.

Some builders also rent out houses that have been paid for in full by a victim/buyer and what does the law state “as the titled owner of the land/property they are not acting illegally”.

At our monthly meeting last Tuesday evening we heard from Architectural Engineer that most of our properties are substandard and any houses built on an incline are in danger of subsidence. No soil testing is carried out prior to build and no proper engineering inspections take place during the build. Add that to the fact that a lot of properties are built and sold in areas where there is no water or electricity.

Who should ultimately be held responsible for what is currently happening to buyers of properties in the TRNC?. The builders? The lawyers? The Government? We think that all of them should be held accountable. The victims/buyers account for approximately 2% of the TRNC´s population yet they are responsible for approximately 30% growth in the economy. And still nobody cares about them.

Because nobody appears to care about the TRNC, except the members of the Homebuyers Pressure Group, foreigners are leaving the Island and the tourists are not coming. Why? The TRNC, especially the Kyrenia District, is a mass of concrete, filth, noise and pollution.

We offered the government an ideal opportunity to gain some positive publicity in the UK for the TRNC last week. A Granada TV crew were here filming for a Consumer Programme investigating some of the problems and pitfalls of owning or purchasing property abroad and were particularly keen to cover some of the issues in the TRNC.

The programme will be shown on UK National television in a few weeks time. We informed the government and invited them to participate by including government officials working with the buyers with problems in an effort to understand and to solve them.

The response from the government was complete silence. So we now know that they don’t care about our problems and are not interested in an opportunity to positively promote the TRNC.”

[rolo]

you are saying that the tcs get their land back if they go back to pre the 74 demands..... then why take it off them? they arent going back.


Piratis tcs are not going back there and you dont say where they are supposed to go back to.

.

[Viewpoint]

Arent we TCs being unfair with this land issue? How can we expect the "RoC" to give back property that is being used by refugees until a solution is found when we are not prepared to give their property back in the north. If the new property commission is given the green light by the ECHR and we start processing applications sucessfully and not just giving the GCs the run around then the pressure will be on the GC administration to resolve TCs claims. My concern is the greedy individuals who have exchanged land in the south for land in the north sold this land and then try to claim and sell the same land they exchanged in the south. They are free to cross south live there for six months and then claim using their old title deeds. As far as I know there is no mechanism in place to detect the TCs that have actually exchanged their land and therefore given up all rights to the TRNC. Both sides have to realize there is a potential risk involved and this is a great opportunity to work together to ensure these loop holes are not exploited. Its one thing expecting GC to accept a financial settlement for used land but its totally another matter saying we will keep all your land but we also want our land back in the south as well. This I cant agree with.

[stuballstu]

Piratis

Why couldn't you answer the questions i previously posted to you and even now are trying to avoid the subject. Is this because it doesn't suit your normal propaganda posts while trying to hide behind a the veil of human rights etc etc. Just because i dare disagree with your thoughts or opinions does not make me a member of the enemy.

Lets look at some facts shall we. The ECHR asked Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots to have a system of restitution for Greek Cypriot owned property, hence the Immovable Property Commission. Once this has been ratified by the ECHR then it becomes the "legal" or whatever you want to call it, course of any action to be taken by a GC. The ECHR will only get involved if the GC has applied to the property comission and and is not satisfied with the outcome.

Quote:
From what i understand they now have the ability to get restitution from the property commission in the north.


The "property commission" in occupied Cyprus is an illegal entity. They can not take any decisions that have any legal importance.

Whatever your personal opinions Piratis this becomes "legal" when the ECHR ratifies it as they will not entertain a case brought by a GC which has not firstly been applied to the Property commission.
Now a TC applying to the GC for restitution has to meet many criteria.

Firstly they have to stay in the ROC government controlled areas for a minimuim of 6 months before the application can proceed.

They do have to be registered as being on the island in 1974 unless the property is part of the deceased owners estate. Which is proposterous as many TC's were "encouraged" to leave Cyprus in the 60's

If the property or lands have been compulsary purchases ( ie used for roads, airports, power stations etc etc) then any compensation will only be paid for as part of a political settlement

Piratis your silence in answering your original post was deafening.

Rolo wrote

Piratis

It was first claimed that 160, 000 were rmade homelss. This figure is now 200, 000

Rolo
The numbers of refugees will always rise. This is mainly due to the children born after 1974 are also counted as refugees as well. It was documented at the time the figure was around 140,000 refugees who were actually displaced.



Piratis the only way the property issues are going to be sorted out is in political solution . Property commissions etc etc will only do the minimuim and equally in the south more than likely a TC claiming land back is now forcing another refugee to move again. A TC who has "exchanged" the land they left in the south, can go back with the deeds and claim the land back in the south and still have the land in the north which they can sell off which is a fellow Cypriot refugees.

There is no quick fix or solution just in the land issues.

I think you might find its called "Pissing in the wind"

[Alexis]

Stuballstu wrote:

It was documented at the time the figure was around 140,000 refugees who were actually displaced.

Where are your sources?

There is no quick fix or solution just in the land issues.

Sure, I agree with this. One of the main concerns of the GC community is the mess that the original intervention and the subsequent selling of land to third parties has made of this issue. Everyone recognises that the issue of land is one of importance to the GC community for the main reason that there is a clear imbalance between the current land split and the population proportions of the twoi communities. Any comprehensive settlement needs to address this isssue and be assured that this will be one of the main facets of any solution that the GC community will judge.
Given the current circumstances this will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. I would say stuball that perhaps I answered your original question on behalf of Piratis. Yes, the current requirements for re-claiming land in the RoC are very strict, however if you really want to compare this to the 'remedy' that the TRNC will provide to GCs I think it is obvious to everyone that the two are in a completely different league. The main difference is that the TRNC wants to be exclusively Turkish, that is its raison d'etre, hence the name, so no remedy will ever go beyond monetary compensation. The RoC on the other hand has by definition to accommodate the TC community as well. This results in the two very different approaches to the issue of property.

[Biker]

If we're going to go back in history then we should all piss off and sign Cyprus over to the Egyptians...

The recorded history of Cyprus begins with the occupation of part of the island by Egypt in about or just before 1450 bc, during the reign of Thutmose III. In subsequent centuries seafaring and trading peoples from the Mediterranean countries set up scattered settlements along its coast. The first Greek colony is believed to have been founded by traders from Arcadia in about 1400 bc. The Phoenicians began to colonize the island in about 800 bc.

Beginning with the rise of Assyria during the 8th century bc, Cyprus was under the control of each one of the empires that successively dominated the eastern Mediterranean. Assyrian authority was followed by Egyptian occupation (550 bc), then Persian (525 bc). During the Persian occupation, King Evagoras I, ruler of the Cypriot city of Salamis, made the first recorded attempt to unify the city-states of Cyprus. In 391 bc Evagoras, with the aid of Athens, led a successful revolt against Persia and temporarily made himself master of the island. Shortly after his death, however, Cyprus again became a Persian possession.

For almost a thousand years thereafter, control of the island passed from empire to empire. Alexander the Great took Cyprus from Persia in 333 bc, and after his death in 323 bc the island again became an Egyptian possession, under the Ptolemies. Rome gained control in 58 bc, followed by the Byzantines in ad 395, who ruled until 1191, when Cyprus was seized by Richard I of England. He gave it to Guy of Lusignan, titular king of Jerusalem—the Lusignan dynasty built several large forts and castles, some of which are still standing. In 1489 Venice took control of Cyprus. Turkey captured the island in 1571 and held it until 1878, when Turkey was defeated in the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878. Fearing greater expansion by Russia, Turkey induced the British to administer Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Lets look at some facts shall we. The ECHR asked Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots to have a system of restitution for Greek Cypriot owned property

You say you will talk about facts and you start with a big fat lie, as usual. Where did they ECHR ask Turkish Cypriots to make such system? The ECHR asked from Turkey to make it, since Turkey is the one that maintains the illegal occupation force on the soil od Republic of Cyprus.

Once this has been ratified by the ECHR then it becomes the "legal" or whatever you want to call it, course of any action to be taken by a GC. The ECHR will only get involved if the GC has applied to the property comission and and is not satisfied with the outcome.

First of all, the ECHR does not decide legality or illegality. It is a court about human rights. Secondly, the ECHR has not ratified anything, except if you have dreamed this as well? What the ECHR did, is make it clear that our human rights are violated by Turkey and that this should be corrected and Turkey pay compensation for the past 32 years and give back to us our properties.

Now a TC applying to the GC for restitution has to meet many criteria.

Firstly they have to stay in the ROC government controlled areas for a minimuim of 6 months before the application can proceed.

If you ask me, no property should be given to any TC until they return the land they stole from us and they accept legality. They are the 18% and they illegally keep the 37%, why the hell should they get more?

They do have to be registered as being on the island in 1974 unless the property is part of the deceased owners estate. Which is proposterous as many TC's were "encouraged" to leave Cyprus in the 60's

Where is your source about the crap you are saying?

Piratis your silence in answering your original post was deafening.

I answered already. Sorry for not wasting more time with answering to things that exist only in your imagination.