Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

I have a feeling that in the occupied part of Cyprus kids grow up indoctrinated with propaganda and selective history lessons.In fact I wonder if I ever lived in Cyprus or perhaps I'm suffering from an illusion. Turkey has violated and continues to do so , the territorial integrity of an independent nation member of the UN and now a European member. All Cypriots suffered a great deal , but listening to some of our T/C compatriots it seems that the entire blame is put on the G/C side. In order to be fair and responsible in any debate , both arguments have to be examined .Viewpoint and our newcomer are convinced that the invasion did not happen , the 200 thousand refugees is an illusion , the hundreds killed by the invading forces and those missing is a figment of imagination.
They are influenced by the endemic and universally well known Turkish denials on many historical and current events. I have heard said that there is no such thing as a Kurd , and the Armenian genocide is all a lie.
The feeling I get is that some of the Cypriots in the North are being absorbed into the mainstream Turkish mainland mentality and are loosing their " Cypriotness "

[Kutluhan]

Mr. Piratis,

Turkish Army is not an occupant. No matter if you don't want to accept the fact that this right and this duty is given to Turkey under the London and Zurich Agreements. The agreements which is accepted and signed by the Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, Turkey, Greece and the United Kingdom. By denying the existence of these agreements, you cannot diminish them. What illegal happened is the Greeks' and GC's coup de etat op 15 juli 1974. Enosis is declared. It was the end of the Republic of Cyprus. One of the guarantors (Greece) of the Republic of Cyprus, brought ten thousands illegaal soldiers and occupied island with GC collaborators, declared ENOSIS. The other guarantor (United Kingdom) wanted not to intervene. You forget to mention those illegalities and occupation, declaration of ENOSIS. The third guarantor, Turkey, announced before intervention that her aim is to save the Turkish Cypriots and to save the constitution of Cyprus... Although by your administration is announced that if Turkey intvervenes, there will no Turkish Cypriot on the island to save... And, as they announced, before and after the arrival of the Turkish Army, all Turkish Cypriots' were under attact... You cannot change the history and the facts. What was legal, what was illegal!... Think one more time.

When the Turkish Army came to the Cyprus, all Turkish Cypriots tried to reach to the North, because of the fear of massacres Greeks doing. Escaping from death...

Later, Makarios and Denktas have reached an agreement to let all Turks to refuge to the North, and all Greeks to the South. It was an agreement Mr. Piratis. It was legal against all illegalities on the way.

Turkey announced several times that when an agreement is reached in Cyprus, the Turkish Army will leave; letting here some units, less than Greece's military existence. They will be here until an agreement is reached.

You say, "This de facto partition happened in 1974 when Turkey invaded the sovereign country of Republic Cyprus"... Wrong. Turkish Army came to this country when the Republic of Cyprus lost her sovereignity because of the occupation and declaration of ENOSIS by Greek forces and by the collaborators in Cyprus. If you still use the name of "Republic of Cyprus" and you have a sovereign state, you should thank to Turkey.

I see the anger in your messege. Ok. Let's not talk before 1974. It hurts you... But how? The father of the AKRITAS PLAN is still the head of the state. TODAY... Let's talk TODAY... Do you think that he changed?
What about others? Do they really changed and seek peace with the Turkish Cypriots? Or is their intention to unify island under Greek Cypriots' domination? Do they AND YOU, accept our veto right conform Consitution?

You didn't answer most of my questions. What you try to do is pure propaganda to the people who doesn't know yet what happened in Cyprus and/or what's happening here.

My answered question was: Is there any GC who expressed his sorrow for murdering unarmed babies, elderlies, women TC's?" Your answer is: "I did also. And I express my sorrow again here".

I killed no one, as you did... I have sorrow for my brother, killed before born, sorrow for my mother, my neighbour ..... But I didn't kill, I didn't harm anybody as you did.

Kutluhan

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Beyond that if you want to find the root of the problem and the chain of events then you have to start from the beginning and not at a convenient date that suits your propaganda needs.

So do you disagree that in 1960 we tried to wipe the slate clean and start a new Republic together. Isnt it as this point that we should have positively pursued and encouraged our Cypriotness and not hidden agendas which have brought us to where we are today?

This must be the turning point in our history where for the first time we had the opportunity to build a united Cyprus but even then people like Piratis make excuses as to being forced into and agreement they had no intention to keeping and in 3 short years asking for changes and disregarding their own supreme court decisions.
The philosphy of you killed more so you are wrong is an excuse and has no bearing on the real issues, if you play with a bomb and it explodes in your face, whos to blame the bomb or the person who showed no concern for himself and the people around him who unfortunately got caught up in the explosion.
We TCs are very sorry for GC losses and the hardship they suffered, it is always in the backs of our minds we feel saddened that it had to come this, these innocent people were unfortunately caught up in the explosion and should question the individual/s who played with the bomb that caused them so much pain and hardship.

Teach your selective version of history to your children.

Look to your own recent report of the minds of young GCs frightening to say the least, people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.

miltiades

I have a feeling that in the occupied part of Cyprus kids grow up indoctrinated with propaganda and selective history lessons

Read the above miltiades, you should put your own house in order your own system appears to very biased and very dangerous.

Turkey has violated and continues to do so , the territorial integrity of an independent nation member of the UN and now a European member. All Cypriots suffered a great deal , but listening to some of our T/C compatriots it seems that the entire blame is put on the G/C side. In order to be fair and responsible in any debate , both arguments have to be examined

I have always stated that both sides are to blame for the chain of events that occured after 1960 but the GCs side could have done more to promote your ideal of one Cypriot nation where TCs are included rather that made outcasts for the pursuit of hidden agendas.

Viewpoint and our newcomer are convinced that the invasion did not happen , the 200 thousand refugees is an illusion , the hundreds killed by the invading forces and those missing is a figment of imagination.
They are influenced by the endemic and universally well known Turkish denials on many historical and current events. I have heard said that there is no such thing as a Kurd , and the Armenian genocide is all a lie.
The feeling I get is that some of the Cypriots in the North are being absorbed into the mainstream Turkish mainland mentality and are loosing their " Cypriotness "

Your analysis is totally wrong as we have different viewpoints, for example the intervention/invasion was something you did not want and it was forced upon you thats why you view it has an invasion. For us it was welcomed with open arms and seen as an intervention that saved our lives.

The other issues are the same they to can be viewed differently from each side of the fence but you appear to dismiss Turkeys viewpoints because they are not on your side of the fence.

[Kifeas]

Mr. Piratis,

Turkish Army is not an occupant. No matter if you don't want to accept the fact that this right and this duty is given to Turkey under the London and Zurich Agreements. The agreements which is accepted and signed by the Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, Turkey, Greece and the United Kingdom. By denying the existence of these agreements, you cannot diminish them. What illegal happened is the Greeks' and GC's coup de etat op 15 juli 1974. Enosis is declared. It was the end of the Republic of Cyprus. One of the guarantors (Greece) of the Republic of Cyprus, brought ten thousands illegaal soldiers and occupied island with GC collaborators, declared ENOSIS. The other guarantor (United Kingdom) wanted not to intervene. You forget to mention those illegalities and occupation, declaration of ENOSIS. The third guarantor, Turkey, announced before intervention that her aim is to save the Turkish Cypriots and to save the constitution of Cyprus... Although by your administration is announced that if Turkey intvervenes, there will no Turkish Cypriot on the island to save... And, as they announced, before and after the arrival of the Turkish Army, all Turkish Cypriots' were under attact... You cannot change the history and the facts. What was legal, what was illegal!... Think one more time.

When the Turkish Army came to the Cyprus, all Turkish Cypriots tried to reach to the North, because of the fear of massacres Greeks doing. Escaping from death...

Later, Makarios and Denktas have reached an agreement to let all Turks to refuge to the North, and all Greeks to the South. It was an agreement Mr. Piratis. It was legal against all illegalities on the way.

Turkey announced several times that when an agreement is reached in Cyprus, the Turkish Army will leave; letting here some units, less than Greece's military existence. They will be here until an agreement is reached.

You say, "This de facto partition happened in 1974 when Turkey invaded the sovereign country of Republic Cyprus"... Wrong. Turkish Army came to this country when the Republic of Cyprus lost her sovereignity because of the occupation and declaration of ENOSIS by Greek forces and by the collaborators in Cyprus. If you still use the name of "Republic of Cyprus" and you have a sovereign state, you should thank to Turkey.

I see the anger in your messege. Ok. Let's not talk before 1974. It hurts you... But how? The father of the AKRITAS PLAN is still the head of the state. TODAY... Let's talk TODAY... Do you think that he changed?
What about others? Do they really changed and seek peace with the Turkish Cypriots? Or is their intention to unify island under Greek Cypriots' domination? Do they AND YOU, accept our veto right conform Consitution?

You didn't answer most of my questions. What you try to do is pure propaganda to the people who doesn't know yet what happened in Cyprus and/or what's happening here.
My answered question was: Is there any GC who expressed his sorrow for murdering unarmed babies, elderlies, women TC's?" Your answer is: "I did also. And I express my sorrow again here".

I killed no one, as you did... I have sorrow for my brother, killed before born, sorrow for my mother, my neighbour ..... But I didn't kill, I didn't harm anybody as you did.

Kutluhan

While what you have said in the entire post above is not a replication of pure propaganda, emanating from the misinformation you are subjected all these years.

[Alexis]

If you still use the name of "Republic of Cyprus" and you have a sovereign state, you should thank to Turkey.

I have a big problem with this. Sure, you can argue Turkey intervened to save TC community from persecution/elimination and this is debatable given her crimes against the GC community which were completely unecessary if that was her only motive. What you cannot argue is that the RoC remains an independent nation because of Turkey's intervention. I think most historians would agree here that the state of affairs being re-established in the south of the country (i.e. re-instatement of Makarios etc...) had very little to do with Turkey and that in fact Turkey was working against the re-establishment of a normal state of affairs (in violation of the Zurich agreements) and couldn't have cared less had Makarios been re-instated or not.

[Piratis]

Turkish Army is not an occupant. No matter if you don't want to accept the fact that this right and this duty is given to Turkey under the London and Zurich Agreements. The agreements which is accepted and signed by the Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, Turkey, Greece and the United Kingdom. By denying the existence of these agreements, you cannot diminish them.

Kutluhan, it would be better (for you) to try and limit your lies and lame propaganda to things that you can not be proven wrong so easily. I guess you are not a professional propagandist like Viewpoint, and you are just a victim of the brainwashing that is performed on you by Turkey.

Here is the treaty of Guarantee. The one Turkey violates for the last 32 years. Can you please tell me where in this treaty Turkey is given the right to occupy 1/3rd of Cyprus. It is in fact exactly the opposite. (what the brainwashing did to you is really amazing!)

Treaty of Guarantee between the Republic of Cyprus and Greece, the United Kingdom and Turkey
The Republic of Cyprus of the one part, and Greece, the United Kingdom and Turkey of the other part:-
I. Considering that the recognition and maintenance of the independence, territorial integrity and security of the Republic of Cyprus, as established and regulated by the basic articles of its Constitution, are in their common interest;
II. Desiring to co-operate to ensure that the provisions of the aforesaid Constitution shall be respected:
Have agreed as follows:
ARTICLE 1
The Republic of Cyprus undertakes to ensure the maintenance of its independence, territorial integrity and security, as well as respect for its Constitution. It undertakes not to participate, in whole or in part, in any political or economic union with any State whatsoever. With this intent it prohibits all activity tending to promote directly or indirectly either union or partition of the Island. ARTICLE 2
Greece the United Kingdom and Turkey, taking note of the undertakings by the Republic of Cyprus embodied in Article 1, recognize and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity and security of the Republic of Cyprus, and also the provisions of the basic articles of its Constitution. They likewise undertake to prohibit, as far as lies within their power, all activity having the object of promoting directly or indirectly either the union of the Republic of Cyprus with any other State, or the partition of the Island.
ARTICLE 3
In the event of any breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, the United Kingdom, and Turkey undertake to consult together, with a view to making representations, or taking the necessary steps to ensure observance of those provisions. In so far as common or concerted action may prove impossible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim Of re-establishing the state of affairs established by the present Treaty.
ARTICLE 4
The present Treaty shall enter into force on signature. The High Contracting Parties undertake to register the present Treaty at the earliest possible date with the Secretariat of the United Nations, in accordance vith the provisions of Article 102 of the Chapter.

I killed no one, as you did... I have sorrow for my brother, killed before born, sorrow for my mother, my neighbour ..... But I didn't kill, I didn't harm anybody as you did.

I was not born until after 1974, and unlike you I have not murdered anybody or supported any crimes and illegalities.
Yes, some Greek Cypriots have committed crimes, which when compared to the crimes that Turks have committed is only a tiny amount. So how come you seem to remember only those few crimes that GCs have committed and you forget the 100 times more crimes of the Turks against us?

[bg_turk]

While what you have said in the entire post above is not a replication of pure propaganda, emanating from the misinformation you are subjected all these years.

One man's truth is another's propaganda.

[rolo]

I am under the immpression that during the exchange of peoples (turk to north, greek to south) Turkey made it plain that her troops would remain until a sollution was found.

Since no one can deny Tur key intervened legally, how can anyone who tried to prevent her lagal intervention claim legallity.

I mean you cant intervene in a war by getting two week return flight tickets. You can only intervene in a war with soldiers, and they dont let that many turkish soldiers through at Nicosia airport.

The war started and the battles took place. The agreement was reached that turkish troops remain on the island until a full settlement is reached.
Now the presence is illegal.

Why cant your govt stick to its agreements? is it the same old lot who wanted to and did trash the constitution?

Are you telling us that you still have the same practises and same party politics as your pre -74 politicians?


I mean as i posted on another thread it appears that your govt has already taken ownership of half the turkish cypriot land in the south. The rest it seemingly will take within the next fifty years. This by the power of some new law, it has been posted.l

[boomerang]

Why cant your govt stick to its agreements?

If what you say is true as to what Turkey said, then Turkey broke the agreement by saying I am staying until there is a solution...The deal was to uphold the constitution and not to make a new agreement...

[Alexis]

The agreement was reached that turkish troops remain on the island until a full settlement is reached.

Which agreement is this, can you post sources?
With all due respect, have you read any of the UN resolutions regarding Cyprus in the last 43 years? They all re-iterate the respect for the 'sovreignty, independence and territorial integrity of the Republic of Cyprus' and further called for the 'withdrawal without delay of foreign military personnel' from the RoC. This has been in practically every resolution regarding Cyprus since 1974 and applies to both sides.
If the Turkish intervention and occupation was within the parameters oif the Zurich agreements then the UN would not have passed these resolutions and the TRNC would have been recognised by now.
Try reading the UN resolutions, they give a much more clear idea of what has happened in Cyprus in the past and of what is expected from Cypriots now for peace. And no, not all the UN resolutions are pro-GC, some clauses are clearly pro-TC and also recognise the strife of the TC community in the years 1963-74.