Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

Yes , be one of us Cypriots , beleive me when you fill your life with Cypriotness the sky is the limit , our children , grandchildren will one day be able to interact with each other with out the hatred and divisions that exist on our beautiful island , your Cyprus and mine.
As for suggestions , well you sound intelligent I will leave it to you. , I don't use an avatar .

[Piratis]

cyprus problem ...not sure there is one since turkish troops INTERVEAND in 1974 killings have stopped and both sides live safe not a sign of violence between the 2 sides. why force them back together ??

Who said that we care to force anybody together? What we want is the land that was stolen from us, and was sold to criminals of your kind. We are the natives of this island for 3500 years. Anybody who doesn't want to live with us should feel free and piss off from our island.

miltiades where is the CYPRIOT avatar I DID NOT WANT A ROC avatar or a greek one sugestions ??

The Cypriot flag is the RoC flag. And you are now violating RoC laws. Will you start crying "please please, I didn't know it was illegal" like the Orams when your turn will come?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis why dont you go and live in Greece where the Greeks are majority and you dont have to live with Turks or Turkish Cypriots, we also have rights on this island to live as equals without discrimination and becoming second class citizens under the authority of the GCs in our own country. You will get your land back as soon as we can agree a solution that both sides can commit to dont forget the is last attempt was rejected resounding by yourselves.

[Kikapu]

Viewpoint , get a hold of your self , you are exaggerating again , how many thousands of Turkish troops died ???

YOU WROTE:
""it is at this point that thousands of Turkish soldiers died and you expect them not retaliate with even greater force, it was all out war the moment you ""

You tend to over estimate the capabilities of the G/Cs to inflict harm on the Turkish army.
YOU USE THE SAME ANALOGY WHEN DEALING WITH WHAT YOU CALL THE "CLEANSING " OF T/Cs
It's called propaganda , its unsubstantiated figures from the top of your head , that really is not necessary.
I think from the top of my head the number of Turkish troops that were killed was no more than a few hundred if that , but as I said I'm using the same criteria as you do , the top of my head.

Miltiades, I do not know what you have in mind but even though the GCs were fighting with WWI “type A” (“martini”) rifles and some bazookas and Brens, Turkish troops indeed have had severe losses. On the landing place and until the fall of Kyrenia (3 days after the invasion begun,) they definitely lost more than 500 troops and officers, and in the 5 day long fighting to occupy Lapithos and Karavas villages during the cease-fire period (31/7 -5/8 ) and which I have lived through until we evacuated Lapithos on the evening of the 4/08, they lost at least another 400 - 500 and about 6 tanks. On the capturing by LOK units of the Kocha Kayia hills opposite St. Hilarion (overlooking Agirda village) and the Petromouthkia hill overlooking the Kyrenia/Nicosia passage, during the night of 20/21 of July, reports say that at least 1-2 companies of parachutists (marines) have vanished. The Turks never publicly revealed their losses in 1974, but it is estimated that that they were in the range 2,000 –in fact approximately as many as the GC NG had lost.

I have just managed to catch up on all your conversations. Viewpoint claims few thousand Turkish soldiers dead, while Miltiades claims "rubbish", and stated only hundreds, (corrected it tonight to mean 10th of hundreds, which means few thousands), and Kifeas also claiming to be in few thousands, but I noticed the touch of exploitation of his own remarks, regarding the deaths of the Turkish troops. I can only think, this was intended to show that a small Greek and GCNG with 1st World War weaponary were able to fight courageously to defend Cyprus and it's citizens from an invading foreign forces, but at the end, they were defeated by a much larger and stronger army, but not before killing thousands of them in the meantime.

If Turkey lost between 2,000 and 3,000 troops in less than few days, how big was the Greek forces on the other side. It sounds to me to be more than the 1,000 mainland legal Greek force that was stationed in Cyprus, and even the 1200 Greek Cypriot national guards, could do so much damage to the Turkish forces. Perhaps we should also add the 10,000 illegal millitia force that Makarios put together in 1960's that was run by his friend Grivas, which was hidden from the TC's. That still only adds up to around 12,000. Just to make a comparison, when the USA and UK invaded Iraq with 150,000 troops, and first fought the Iraqi army, then the rag tag insurgents, with their hit and run fighting, and after 3 years with an on going deaths to the US and UK forces, the total is less than 3,000. How can this be. Turkey loses 2,000 to 3,000 in a few days and the US and UK about the same amount in 3 years. If Kifeas did not confirm these Turkish troop deaths, I would have called Viewpoint a lier also, just as Miltiades did at first.

So what is my conclusion from all these. Well, there had to be a lot more mainland and local forces that fought the Turkish troops. And I have to say, thank God that the Turks were not defeated by this large and well equiped with heavy weapons form the Greek side, because, once Turkey pulled back with it's tail between it's legs, it was going to be "turkey shoot" for the rest of the Turkish Cypriots. I now believe, that the "coup" was well organized to 1st to defeat an invading force from Turkey as the guarantor, and than finish of the TC's. It would have been a perfect set up, to claim that the TC's just got caught and killed between the two forces, and had Turkey did not try to invade, all this would have been avoided. Then of course, the Enosis would have been established within few days.

The more I read of the past, the more problems I see for the future. Turkey will have a hard time walking away from Cyprus, if in fact they lost up to 3,000 troops there. And at the same time, TC's will have a hard time trusting their GC's for the future, knowing they came within a whisker of being wiped out. This is not to say that the average GC is responsible as to what has and almost had happened to the TC's, but at the same time, had Enosis went ahead, they would not be looking back today, wishing that it never happened. So the future is very uncertain both to the TC's and the GC's.

Piratis and Kifeas,

Since you're both around right now, can I just go back to what we were talking last week, and see whether you can give some explanation as to how 2,000-3,000 Turkish Forces could have been killed in the first few days of the invasion in 1974 by the Greek Defence forces in Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Piratis why dont you go and live in Greece where the Greeks are majority and you dont have to live with Turks or Turkish Cypriots

Because Cyprus is my homeland and I have no problem to live among other Cypriots or even foreign nationals that respect the laws of my country. So why should I live?

we also have rights on this island to live as equals without discrimination and becoming second class citizens under the authority of the GCs in our own country.

Nobody said the opposite. Each TC has the exact same rights as each GC, and there shouldn't be first class and second class citizens, but instead all citizens should be treated in the exact same way without any kind of the racist discriminations that you insist for.

You will get your land back as soon as we can agree a solution that both sides can commit to dont forget the is last attempt was rejected resounding by yourselves.

How about you giving to me all your money. Then we will negotiate and if I agree I will give them back to you. If I don't agree to give them back I will keep them? And by the way, I am stating clearly that I would not give them back, only a small part maybe. Is this OK to you? Or you now realize how ridiculous your arguments are?

[Piratis]

Since you're both around right now, can I just go back to what we were talking last week, and see whether you can give some explanation as to how 2,000-3,000 Turkish Forces could have been killed in the first few days of the invasion in 1974 by the Greek Defence forces in Cyprus.

Personally I don't know how many of the invading forces got killed and over what period. The explanation however is clear: They were invading a foreign sovereign country that naturally resisted to their invasion.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Because Cyprus is my homeland and I have no problem to live among other Cypriots or even foreign nationals that respect the laws of my country. So why should I live?

Because you continually ask us to leave so maybe you should also consider this possibility. We to love our country and the reason both sides are living seperately where you feel you have been robbed is just as much your fault as it is mine.

Nobody said the opposite. Each TC has the exact same rights as each GC, and there shouldn't be first class and second class citizens, but instead all citizens should be treated in the exact same way without any kind of the racist discriminations that you insist for.

This is the ideal but as we have discussed in the past how do we get there and also incorporate safety valves and guarantees to insure the past does not repeat itself. If you have the solution that will address both our concerns then put it forward so that we may consider how you see a united Cyprus and please dont quote your standard rhetoric we have all heard it to many times.

How about you giving to me all your money. Then we will negotiate and if I agree I will give them back to you. If I don't agree to give them back I will keep them? And by the way, I am stating clearly that I would not give them back, only a small part maybe. Is this OK to you? Or you now realize how ridiculous your arguments are?

But we have not taken all you money, you conveniently forget that some of it is ours. You have 63% of the island and international recognition with a purely GC state yet you stilll want more. Whether we have more than our fair share and how much of this we should give back really depends on how we find a solution because dont forget this is a trade off land for recognition, your land our recognition.

[miltiades]

VIEWPOINT WROTE:

""" We to love our country and the reason both sides are living seperately where you feel you have been robbed is just as much your fault as it is mine. ""

This is the first time that you have made such profound and direct comments and I applaud you . With this type of attitudes we can go forward and find a solution proving all of us peace , stability , justice and human rights in our beloved Cyprus .

[miltiades]

VP , forgot to say thanks for the removal of the offending avatar. I applaud you again my friend.

[Viewpoint]

VIEWPOINT WROTE:

""" We to love our country and the reason both sides are living seperately where you feel you have been robbed is just as much your fault as it is mine. ""

This is the first time that you have made such profound and direct comments and I applaud you . With this type of attitudes we can go forward and find a solution proving all of us peace , stability , justice and human rights in our beloved Cyprus .

I have stated that both sides are to blame and trying to lay the blame entirely on one side gets us nowhere, both sides messed up big time. The real question is where do we go from here? The last 32 years shows we cannnot agree to anything and that living seperately is more peaceful than living together, we do not have the vision, will or desire to reunite oe we would have done so many years ago and please dont blame all and sundry we Cypriots are just a smuch to blame. I came to the stark conclusion that we will never reunite and even today I hold no hope, my aim on this forum was to be persuaded otherwise but the posts just confirm I am right over and over again. The momentum for recognized partition for return of land is gaining momentum as people become more and more frustrated and not finding the solution they want, time will work in favor of this type of solution when generations to come will accept to stay apart and continue on as 2 seperate recognized states. That was they GCs will not have to share anything with us and we do not have to worry about being dominated and controlled the numerically larger GC community.