Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

VP, why do you insist on things that it is clear you do not know by fact but perhaps you only heart or even imagined? Yes, it is true that there were many fortifications and bankers, both on the mountain range and on the coastline, and had we have not been betrayed by the “Greek” junta and its officers that unfortunately were then in control of the National Guard, and had deployed the artillery and all the rest of out resources on time (from the night before) instead of running in the open on the morning of the 20th of July, in full daylight and under the Turkish air force, in order to take positions and man all the pre-established posts, most definitely the Turkish invasion would have been repelled successfully, and this in view of the fact (as it was seen in practice) that it was a very poorly planned and executed operation. It only turned out successful due to the situation the NG was found as a result of the coup and the very late reaction of the NG. As I explained to you already, the Turkish troops started landing (in reality disembarking) at 8:20 am, without even a single artillery, machinegun or rifle shot to hinder them. By the time the first GC troops arrived (on foot) from Kyrenia, at the scene (about 3 companies of reservists -500 men,) a large portion of the landing troops -one marine battalion (800 men) and 2 infantry battalions (1600 men,) were already outside, on the coast, and had taken positions around the “5 mile” area in a 350 meter radius -180 degree perimeter, around the landing spot /beach.

Any engagement between the two sides did not take place right on the landing beach but only on the perimeter, and due to the fact that more and better equipped troops were out already, the GC force did not manage to rappel them effectively and get closer to the actual landing. Only a very small amount of the artillery had manage to take the posts which you say were on the mountains, simply because they were nearly all bombed and destroyed on the way to take those posts by the Turkish air force. As a result, most of those bankers remained unmanned and unarmed. The biggest fight took place during the night of the 20/21, when the Turkish air force stopped from operating and that gave the chance to more GC forces to approach the landing bridgehead. However, by the time the night had come, Turkey had managed to land about 4,000 troops and armed vehicles and expanded the bridgehead to a 500 meter radius, and thus the attack on them, which started very late (around 1:30 am of the 21/7) since there was a need to concentrate more GC troops on the scene from the time it got dark in the evening of the day before, did not produce a final outcome, which was to completely eliminate the bridgehead. In 3 hours from the time the attack was lunched, at 4:30 am of the 21/7, the Turkish air force had begun its operations again, and thus the GC operation came to an end. It was during the night of 20/21 that the Turkish troops suffered the heaviest losses and not during the day that the landing was taking place.

What you say about the Turkish army not being ready or willing to massively bomb or kill, and that it did so only after it was attacked and had losses, is not so true. It is not true because already and civilians that were found in their way in all the houses around the landing spot /beach, have mostly been killed on the spot during the first hours after they have gone off the shore, and before they were even attacked by GC troops. In this area and during the first day of the invasion, I have lost one uncle and one cousin whose house was (still is) situated about 150 meters to the west of the landing beach, on the main road. I suppose the last thing the Turkish troops were interested in dealing with, as they came off the boats and into an unknown territory and in which case they were equally scared with the locals and thus wanted to quickly take defensive positions, was to deal with hostages, that is why they were shooting indiscriminately on any civilian or house that was in that area.

[Kifeas]

Viewpoint , are joking or are you just talking rubbish. Who the hell would welcome an invading army in their country with open arms , get a hold of your self man get real , don't have such ridiculous assumptions that the invading army was an army of peace. Your insulting your own people too by making such ludicrous suggestions.
JUST READ THIS CRAP >>>>>


""was at this point whne the Turkish army started to take heavy loses and it was evident that GCs were not welcoming their peace operation they hit back with the full force ""

Why is it so ridicoulous the troops landed to restore order due to the coup even Makarios asked for help and what met them a full scale bombing and firing population of GCs, they started to take heavy loses, what did you expect them to do? they fought back with all their force. If the GCs had not have shown hostility what do you think the Turkish soldiers would have done with UN and world looking on?

VP, this is crab! It is like you are saying now that, because the victim of a rape attack resisted and caused some bruises, punches and bites on the rapist, this is why the rapist besides raping was also “compelled” to kill the victim for resisting the rape, and not seating instead to peacefully enjoy having sex.

The Turkish troops did not land in order to restore order, but in order to conquer, occupy land, ethnically cleanse the GC population and partition Cyprus. Full stop! All the rest is crap, crap, crap!

The “restoring the order” little story is what Turkey conveniently tried to sell to the international public opinion, in order to fool them around and have them close their eyes into what it was going to be the case!

And by the way, when Makarios was making his infamous speech at the UN, on Friday 19 of July at 10:30 pm Cyprus time, the Turkish navy was outside Kerynia and waiting for the night to pass and the sun to rise, so that the invasion would start early in the morning, and certainly the Generals were not on the radio waiting to hear what Makarios was going to say in NY and if he was going to issue an invitation to them for their already commenced operation to move forward.

[Natty]

As far as i can tell, when the coup happened, a coup that 99.9% of the GC poulation did NOT support, the fighting that occured was completely between the Greeks, a fact that Denktash has even agreed on. The first fleet of Turkish troops that arrived, were, again as far as I know, legally able to come. However a few days(?) after the coup the Greek Junta collapsed, and democratic goverments were put into power in both Greece and Cyprus, so that threat had gone. I also believe that during the cease fire, Denktash ordered/asked Klirides to hand over 37(?)% of Cyprus, he asked for 48 hours to meet with the cabinet and discuss, not a unreasnable demand, Denktash however refused and the invasion went ahead anyway. Again as far as I can tell, plans for partition had been going on for a long time, the seeds of partition were even planted, whether on purpose or not, whithin the constitution. I mean, strategic points had been taken, strategic enclaves had been formed, the consentration of a people's in a certain area, etc....The Turkish Army used the coup as a pretext to invade Cyprus, a fact that many people agree on. I mean how could it be a peace opperation? How do you explain the ethnic cleansing of 250 000 people, of the killing of innocent unarmed civilians, of the rape of many women ("...a telling fact here is that the Orthodox Church in Cyprus, for years a stearn foe of abortion, was compelled to relax it's rules on the termination of pregnancy because of the devastating number of rapes." (Hostage to History)), the execution of prisoners, the torture and ill treatment of detainers, organized looting, and the arbitrary mass detention of civilians. All things the commision of human rights found the Turkish army/Turkey guilty of.....I understand that the Turkish army had heavy lossos, but that does not excuse that behaviour, neither the fact that some GC/Greek iregulars killed innocent Turkish Cypriots, because of what the Turkish army did, excuses their behaviour. (If that makes sense....). The 'peace operation' also does not explain why Denkatsh demanded the TC's in the south be moved on into the North, or why a 'separate state' was declared..(All consistent with the Partition plans)..

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but I just can't understand why anyone would call it a 'peace opperation'....

Peace!

[Viewpoint]

VP, why do you insist on things that it is clear you do not know by fact but perhaps you only heart or even imagined? Yes, it is true that there were many fortifications and bankers, both on the mountain range and on the coastline, and had we have not been betrayed by the “Greek” junta and its officers that unfortunately were then in control of the National Guard, and had deployed the artillery and all the rest of out resources on time (from the night before) instead of running in the open on the morning of the 20th of July, in full daylight and under the Turkish air force, in order to take positions and man all the pre-established posts, most definitely the Turkish invasion would have been repelled successfully, and this in view of the fact (as it was seen in practice) that it was a very poorly planned and executed operation. It only turned out successful due to the situation the NG was found as a result of the coup and the very late reaction of the NG. As I explained to you already, the Turkish troops started landing (in reality disembarking) at 8:20 am, without even a single artillery, machinegun or rifle shot to hinder them. By the time the first GC troops arrived (on foot) from Kyrenia, at the scene (about 3 companies of reservists -500 men,) a large portion of the landing troops -one marine battalion (800 men) and 2 infantry battalions (1600 men,) were already outside, on the coast, and had taken positions around the “5 mile” area in a 350 meter radius -180 degree perimeter, around the landing spot /beach.

Any engagement between the two sides did not take place right on the landing beach but only on the perimeter, and due to the fact that more and better equipped troops were out already, the GC force did not manage to rappel them effectively and get closer to the actual landing. Only a very small amount of the artillery had manage to take the posts which you say were on the mountains, simply because they were nearly all bombed and destroyed on the way to take those posts by the Turkish air force. As a result, most of those bankers remained unmanned and unarmed. The biggest fight took place during the night of the 20/21, when the Turkish air force stopped from operating and that gave the chance to more GC forces to approach the landing bridgehead. However, by the time the night had come, Turkey had managed to land about 4,000 troops and armed vehicles and expanded the bridgehead to a 500 meter radius, and thus the attack on them, which started very late (around 1:30 am of the 21/7) since there was a need to concentrate more GC troops on the scene from the time it got dark in the evening of the day before, did not produce a final outcome, which was to completely eliminate the bridgehead. In 3 hours from the time the attack was lunched, at 4:30 am of the 21/7, the Turkish air force had begun its operations again, and thus the GC operation came to an end. It was during the night of 20/21 that the Turkish troops suffered the heaviest losses and not during the day that the landing was taking place.

What you say about the Turkish army not being ready or willing to massively bomb or kill, and that it did so only after it was attacked and had losses, is not so true. It is not true because already and civilians that were found in their way in all the houses around the landing spot /beach, have mostly been killed on the spot during the first hours after they have gone off the shore, and before they were even attacked by GC troops. In this area and during the first day of the invasion, I have lost one uncle and one cousin whose house was (still is) situated about 150 meters to the west of the landing beach, on the main road. I suppose the last thing the Turkish troops were interested in dealing with, as they came off the boats and into an unknown territory and in which case they were equally scared with the locals and thus wanted to quickly take defensive positions, was to deal with hostages, that is why they were shooting indiscriminately on any civilian or house that was in that area.

Great story but thats all it is, are you making it up as you go along? The GC were preparing for such and attack via the north coast for more than 14 years, all you have to do is visit those fortifications and bunkers to see the advantage they had to exert force that the Turkish troops faced while trying to land at 5 mile, in fact you are right and confirm to certain extent that what I am saying is correct that if the Turkish army was to rely on landing at 5 mile they would definately have been wiped out but when faced with dire situations they army changes to alternatives plans and that was the airforce bombings of strong holds in the hills and sending in commandos forces via parachutes to the area south of the mountain range to work north towards Kyrenia in support of the troops trying to land at 5 mile. This what worked as the commandos blew out the bunkers and were sucessful in stopping the constant shelling and death of Turkish soldiers as they were "disembarking" as you like to call it, receeded they were able to move heavy artillery to start the push south.

Really Kifeas you make it sound like these troops had just landed on a sandy beach at butlins holiday camp, the GC shelling and machinegun fire enflamed the Turkish Army into full scale war and the rest is history. Seeing you have all the facts and figures about how many men did what and to who which you are pulling out of your arse, tell us how many dead Turkish soldiers were fished out of the sea and how many were buried?

I never said the army was not ready or willing to fight, all armies are trained to fight and kill, didnt you know that? you should as you are in training yourself...faced with the aggresive reaction of the GC forces and the fear for the lives of their men full scale war erupted which you should know is fought without a methodical or ethical approach but that of survival and victory.

If the the Turkish Troops were not met with GC resistence and were instead welcomed to the island under the guarantee agreements to restore order we would not have encountered the unnecessary deaths of many people or find ourselves in the situation we are in today.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint , are joking or are you just talking rubbish. Who the hell would welcome an invading army in their country with open arms , get a hold of your self man get real , don't have such ridiculous assumptions that the invading army was an army of peace. Your insulting your own people too by making such ludicrous suggestions.
JUST READ THIS CRAP >>>>>


""was at this point whne the Turkish army started to take heavy loses and it was evident that GCs were not welcoming their peace operation they hit back with the full force ""

Why is it so ridicoulous the troops landed to restore order due to the coup even Makarios asked for help and what met them a full scale bombing and firing population of GCs, they started to take heavy loses, what did you expect them to do? they fought back with all their force. If the GCs had not have shown hostility what do you think the Turkish soldiers would have done with UN and world looking on?

VP, this is crab! It is like you are saying now that, because the victim of a rape attack resisted and caused some bruises, punches and bites on the rapist, this is why the rapist besides raping was also “compelled” to kill the victim for resisting the rape, and not seating instead to peacefully enjoy having sex.

The Turkish troops did not land in order to restore order, but in order to conquer, occupy land, ethnically cleanse the GC population and partition Cyprus. Full stop! All the rest is crap, crap, crap!

The “restoring the order” little story is what Turkey conveniently tried to sell to the international public opinion, in order to fool them around and have them close their eyes into what it was going to be the case!

And by the way, when Makarios was making his infamous speech at the UN, on Friday 19 of July at 10:30 pm Cyprus time, the Turkish navy was outside Kerynia and waiting for the night to pass and the sun to rise, so that the invasion would start early in the morning, and certainly the Generals were not on the radio waiting to hear what Makarios was going to say in NY and if he was going to issue an invitation to them for their already commenced operation to move forward.

What you say is CRAB Do you have the right to rape? no. Turkey had the right to protect the TCs and restore law and order but faced with GC resisitence they retaliated as any other army would have have done under those conditions. Since their intervention have you enjoyed a peaceful existence? are people dieing everyday? do bombs go off all around us? have you prospered? have you got your GC state? do you enjoy sole recognition? You will say but you have stolen 1/3 of the island well my friend you cannot steal anything that already belongs to you and dont forget you have 2/3 of the island. We have for all these years still been unable to resolve our differences and as long as we are unable to do so we will live divided as this appears to be the better option for everyone who values their life more than anything else.

[miltiades]

Viewpoint how brainwashed are you , are there many like you who believe the rubbish theories you are posting
Do you honestly think that the 82% of Cypriots faced by an invading army should have cracked open a few bottles of KEO beer and celebrate the arrival of an invading army?

""If the the Turkish Troops were not met with GC resistance and were instead welcomed to the island under the guarantee agreements to restore order we would not have encountered the unnecessary deaths of many people or find ourselves in the situation we are in today.""
You are I hope a minority amongst my Turkish Cypriot compatriots whith such absurd assertions.

[Viewpoint]

How do you know that? you showed that you did not want them to come to the island with guns what did you expect them to do? if they met no resisitence do you really believe they would have pushed you all into the sea? leave those fairy tales alone. Brut force is met with brut force and the GCs restitence was brut force but they didnt anticipate such a strong opponent. You played with fire and got burnt.

[miltiades]

Cant make you out , you are either mad or just plain stupid. You are saying that we did not want them to come to the island ?? Are you joking or just trying to annoy me . Is there a parallel in the world where a foreign army YES A FOREIGN ARMY TO THE 82% OF CYPRIOTS , invades a nation and is welcomed by the natives ,get real you are making as much sense as Alexander did. And Im telling you now you are amongst the T/Cs a very small minority.

[Viewpoint]

Natty

As far as i can tell, when the coup happened, a coup that 99.9% of the GC poulation did NOT support, the fighting that occured was completely between the Greeks, a fact that Denktash has even agreed on.

What % of the GC supported Enosis? wasnt it the dream of most GCs? The coup was just the action to unite Cyprus with Greece which is what the GCs wanted.

The first fleet of Turkish troops that arrived, were, again as far as I know, legally able to come.

Correct.

However a few days(?) after the coup the Greek Junta collapsed, and democratic goverments were put into power in both Greece and Cyprus, so that threat had gone. I also believe that during the cease fire, Denktash ordered/asked Klirides to hand over 37(?)% of Cyprus, he asked for 48 hours to meet with the cabinet and discuss, not a unreasnable demand, Denktash however refused and the invasion went ahead anyway.

The Turkish Cypriots were still at risk not just by the coup but alos by the fact that the 1960 constitution was not functioning.

Again as far as I can tell, plans for partition had been going on for a long time, the seeds of partition were even planted, whether on purpose or not, whithin the constitution. I mean, strategic points had been taken, strategic enclaves had been formed, the consentration of a people's in a certain area, etc....

Taksim was a direct response to Enosis. The concntration of TCs into 3% of the island was out of fear from the GCs and exclusion from the 1960 consituiton and thus our rights under those agreements.

The Turkish Army used the coup as a pretext to invade Cyprus

The situation creating a more dangerous tituation for the TC community but was not the sole reason, we were excluded form the taking our part in the "RoC" unless we accepted the Aktritas plan.

I mean how could it be a peace opperation?

We have been living peacefully since 1974, so for us is was a peace operation as before then it was living hell for us the TCsand heaven on earth for the GCs who ran the island on their own just as they wanted it.

How do you explain the ethnic cleansing of 250 000 people, of the killing of innocent unarmed civilians, of the rape of many women ("...a telling fact here is that the Orthodox Church in Cyprus, for years a stearn foe of abortion, was compelled to relax it's rules on the termination of pregnancy because of the devastating number of rapes." (Hostage to History)), the execution of prisoners, the torture and ill treatment of detainers, organized looting, and the arbitrary mass detention of civilians. All things the commision of human rights found the Turkish army/Turkey guilty of.....

It was a full scale war aggriavted by the resistence of the GCs towards to Turkish Army who were here under interantional agreements to protect the TCs and restore order. (Look at other wars and you will see many similarities.)

I understand that the Turkish army had heavy lossos, but that does not excuse that behaviour, neither the fact that some GC/Greek iregulars killed innocent Turkish Cypriots, because of what the Turkish army did, excuses their behaviour. (If that makes sense....). The 'peace operation' also does not explain why Denkatsh demanded the TC's in the south be moved on into the North, or why a 'separate state' was declared..(All consistent with the Partition plans)..

Natty if the GCs had worked for a united Cyprus with TCs under the 1960 consitituions none of the dark years would have happened but the GCs hidden agendas and the subsequent reactionary hidden agenda of TCs both sides suffered and we have arrived in a situation were we are still unable to live together. So whats changed? Nothing and as long as both sides continue to maintian their current stale mate approach dont hold your breath and you will surely suffocate.

[Viewpoint]

Cant make you out , you are either mad or just plain stupid. You are saying that we did not want them to come to the island ?? Are you joking or just trying to annoy me . Is there a parallel in the world where a foreign army YES A FOREIGN ARMY TO THE 82% OF CYPRIOTS , invades a nation and is welcomed by the natives ,get real you are making as much sense as Alexander did. And Im telling you now you are amongst the T/Cs a very small minority.

Do you know about Turkeys guarantor rights? she is allowed to intervene to restore law and order which she has been trying to do. The fact that we have not been able to find a solution to our problems is a clear indiciation that things have not been resolved so her role continues until a time we can find a solution both sides can commit to.

Why shoud I try to annoy you there are many many TCs who think like me why are so suprised. Am I testing your beliefs and narrow vision that Turkey is blame for everything.