Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

I know I seem to bring this up a lot, but it seems like many people tend to forget this.

Not as much perhaps as some tend to forget the events that led upto this?

And people need to stop disguising the Anna plan as a solution.

By 'people' do you mean everyone in the world except the 75% of GC and 35% of TC that voted NO to it?

Aside from a parition plan which would repremand the violators of international law

I assume that you meant 'reward' and not 'repremand'. The events of 74 did not violate international law so much as they violated GC (which I think is your REAL gripe). Many would say (Piratis amongst them perhaps?) what goes around comes around.

[pantelis]

I kind of thought you might say that. So you are the one responsible for Bush getting in the first time?

I live in a Blue state!

[magikthrill]

Not as much perhaps as some tend to forget the events that led upto this?

If you're so keen on events that lead to other events, maybe i should remind you of Turkey's pre-74 policy that could have led to the GCs (unjustifiable of course) actions:

Professor Dervis Manizade in an article in the Istanbul daily "Milliyet" (7.20.78) quoted Attaturk as saying while addressing military commanders:
"Pay attention to Cyprus, this island is important to us."

In 1954, nine years before intercommunal conflict broke out in 1963, the then Foreign Minister of Turkey F. Koprufu, declared that Cyprus is an "extention of continental Turkey", and that it should revert to Turkey "on the basis of geographical proximity."

( http://www.hr-action.org/chr/Tpolicy.html )

i understand how you're trying to say that the current events are a results of past events. but both GC and TC nationalists were at fault back then. right now though ONLY Turkey and TCs are in breach of international law.

By 'people' do you mean everyone in the world except the 75% of GC and 35% of TC that voted NO to it?

No I mean everyone that is intelligent enough to look beyond biased media sources and have the brain power to understand that the Annan plan does nothing but recognize the breakway state.

The events of 74 did not violate international law so much as they violated GC (which I think is your REAL gripe).

hmm... according to UN SC 353:

The Security Council, [...]

1.Calls upon all States to respect the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus

3.Demands an immediate end to foreign military intervention in the Republic of Cyprus that is in contravention of the provisions of paragraph 1 above;

4.4. Requests the withdrawal without delay from the Republic of Cyprus of foreign military personnel present otherwise than under the authority of international agreements

of course I'm sure you know about this and dozens of other resolutions condemning the international violation of both Turkey's 74 invasion as well as the self-declaration of the pseudo-state.

[Othellos]

The events of 74 did not violate international law so much as they violated GC (which I think is your REAL gripe).

There is nothing in international Law that can justify Turkey's 1974 invasion in Cyprus. And contray to what Turkey claims from time to time, the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee does not justify it either. The reason I write this is because denial the true facts is being interpreted as lack of respect for the other side.

O.

[tcypriot]

Muhahahahaha

Greeks wake up, Republic of Cyprus was a bicommunal state and the Turkish Cypriots were kicked out of the Republic by use of force.

Cyprus Republic was hijacked and turned into a greek republic by greeks in 1963.

Since 1963 without the consent of the Turkish Cypriots that have political equality with the Cyprus Greeks, thousands of illegal acts were passed. Greeks ruled the state without the consent of the Turkish Cypriots which was/is a must.

Can international Law justify your theft of the Cyprus Republic..

Every action of the Greek Cypriot Pseudo parliament after 1963 is illegal due to the fact that laws regarding a bicommunal state were passed without the consent of the other equal nation, Turkish Cypriot Nation.

And the greeks are so succesful in lobbying, so succesful in defending strange ideas that they come up with funny ideas such as they being on the side of the international law and us being against it.

Was seizing the Cyprus Republic a legal act Greeks?

Was by use of force occupying the land of tens of thousands of Turkish Cypriots and forcing them to live in Ghettos, legal by international law Greeks?

Or bringing tens of thousands of Greek Occupiers from Greece to destroy the Turkish Cypriot nation after 1963 legal by international law Greeks?

Dont make us laugh and dont speak about international law.

Stop this propoganda of yours that the cyprus problem started in 1974.

You can fool people who know nothing about Cyprus, or about Turkish Cypriots about the fact you being the sole owner or Cyprus or the Cyprus Problem starting in 1974.

But hey wake up! We are also Cypriots, you know so dont try to teach us our own history.

Also we know who we are and we dont need others to tell us who we are.

We're a part of the Strong and Resistant Turkish Cypriot Nation which is one of the two Equal owners of Cyprus.

[magikthrill]

lol you are hilarious. i wont even dignify your ignorant comments with a response for the sake of intelligent TCs out there (which i pray to god are the majority)

however i could not resist on your last part:

We're a part of the Strong and Resistant Turkish Cypriot Nation which is one of the two Equal owners of Cyprus.

Im sorry but when you say "Strong and Resistant" do you mean weak and impoverished? Cause I kinda got the feeling last time I visited the occupied territories.

[Piratis]

tcypriot, in 1963 you left yourselves, and you were not kicked out. This was all part of Turkey's plan for partition.

In 1963 Makarios made some proposals. TCs didn't like them and they left. Those proposals were never implemented and TCs were never kicked out.

It is true, that GCs didn't handle the situation well at that time, and they have part of the blame. They didn't bother to try to bring TCs back. But the other part of the blame belongs to the TCs that saw those events as an excuse for partition, which has been their aim since 1960.

In any case, nothing can justify illegal acts of today. If it was like that, then the illegal acts of GCs in 1963-67 would have been justified by the acts of Ottomans against us.
I told you before and I will tell you again. If you believe that this is "your turn" to harm us, then go ahead. Just remember that if we keep taking turns in harming in each other the suffering will never end for any of us.

Wouldn't it be best to leave the past behind and start fresh as a new modern, democratic, independent European Cyprus?

[erolz]

If you're so keen on events that lead to other events, maybe i should remind you of Turkey's pre-74 policy that could have led to the GCs (unjustifiable of course) actions:

and if Turkey had not said these things do you really think the GC desire and aspirations and actions would have been any different because I do not.

i understand how you're trying to say that the current events are a results of past events. but both GC and TC nationalists were at fault back then. right now though ONLY Turkey and TCs are in breach of international law.

What I am suggesting is that 'people tend to forget' that which it is convient for them to forget and remember that which it is convient to remember. It was not imo just a (few) nationalists that were at fault 'back then' either. The illegal acts, the muders, the terrorism and oppresive use of force to subjegate people was endenmic and was 'allowed' by any Cypriot who knew what was happening and did nothing to stop it.

This idea that today the only issue that needs solving in Cyprus is Turkey's presence in the Island and the TC state, is to me just part of the ongoing (current , today) attempts (by some) GC to 'dominate' Cyprus (and the TC that live there) today, just as they tried to do in the past. Those people that insist that TC as a community can have and should have no more status in Cyprus than that of a politcal minority are as mcuh as fault today as they were historicaly for the problems in Cyprus.

No I mean everyone that is intelligent enough to look beyond biased media sources and have the brain power to understand that the Annan plan does nothing but recognize the breakway state.

So the UN (and the EU and just about everyone else) are unintelligent and unable to look beyond media sources (or simply the agents of GC haters etc) when they brokered and supported the Annan plan - but the absolute international legal authority, that should be obeyed by all at all times when they condem Turkey's presence in Cyprus?

of course I'm sure you know about this and dozens of other resolutions condemning the international violation of both Turkey's 74 invasion as well as the self-declaration of the pseudo-state.

I also know of countless times that the GC under Makarios ignored and blatantly violated UN resolutions. Maybe if your support for such resolutions had been as strong then (when you were not the victims) as they appear to be now then the tradgic events of 74 would not have occured in the first place.

[erolz]

There is nothing in international Law that can justify Turkey's 1974 invasion in Cyprus. And contray to what Turkey claims from time to time, the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee does not justify it either. The reason I write this is because denial the true facts is being interpreted as lack of respect for the other side.

O.

Just to be clear I was not suggesting that the events after 74 were legal. What I am suggesting is that what most GC care about is not the 'sanctaty' of 'international law' (a bizzare and ill defined concept at the best of times) but actualy to get back that which they lost in 74. However it 'looks better' if it is portrayed as a simple desire for 'justice' than as a desire to regain that lost. If the desire for 'justice' was genuine and not just expiedent we probably would not be in this situation today.

[tcypriot]

piratis, we did not leave the republic by our selves. I accept that some fractions of the TCs might have been willing to leave the state but not all or most of them.
Turkish Cypriots tried to return to republic after being forcefully kicked* many times in 1960s but their very basic right of equal political representation was prevented by the Greek Cypriot leadership. Mr. Clerides replied to the Turkish Cypriots demand to return to the republic by saying that " You can return only after accepting the one sided amendmendts that we've made to the constitution..or else i cannot guarantee their lives..".So the TCs could return but not to a state of political equality but to one where GCs ruled.

Piratis, we can leave the past behind but do you think that we can build a strong relationship upon a weak foundation? What i mean is do you think that we can have a common state before dealing with the problem of we seeing something as black and you white.

For example, the "Republic of Cyprus" issue,from our point of view, Republic of Cyprus was formed of two major communites, one of which the GCs and the other TCs. So after 1963 you without our consent have been using all the powers of the Republic of Cyprus and what more you have been using them against us.This is unacceptable for us.

Even stating a very single fact such as the fact that the Greek Cypriots one sidedly closed the seperate greek and turkish cypriot parliaments and united them under one parliament, is enough for me piratis to feel to have explained that the Cyprus Republic no longer exists since 1963.

Piratis, lets look to the future ok, so i and my community did. But you said no to peace with us by a blatant %75, everywhere in South Cyprus on our walking path or driving path are there NOs which are clearly for us to see.

Ok, you made a mistake and said no. But what are you doing now, blocking the not worth mentioning little aids of the EU to North, blocking all kinds of TC representation in the European Organs, forbidding any trade with north that's not stated in the EU regulation(that means without the EU pressure your side wouldnt have allowed any trade-notice the collected cigars)

Or what else you're doing, you're forcing the TCs and Turkey to accept that you're the sole owners of Cyprus and you can represent the Cyprus as a whole without us.

We cannot accept that Piratis. Any nation other than a nation of slaves would accept that Piratis.

We really have difficulty in trusting you. We forgave you, after taking into account that you also suffered and offered you a peaceful handshake, but your reply was 3/4 of the GCs rejecting the Annan Plan.

I dont want your side to be forced to accept a solution plan, because this will result in the same way as it did in 1963 and our new state will also be burried as an infant. I'm happy that referanda were made, firstly because of the fact that this shows our seperate self determination rights and secondly because this way no side would be forced to accept something that they dont want to.

But you should not also force us to accept things that we do not want to accept.For example a solution very different from the Annan Plan in a way to weaken the rights of the tcs, we wont accept.

Or you should not also force us to accept that you are the only owners of Cyprus and you can represent the whole island without our consent.That under no circumstance we'll accept.

So what must be done is to make your side understand that you have to compare the Annan plan with the Current Situation in Cyprus not with the Pre1963 situation.This way you'll see that its much more better than an island loaded with weapons ready to explode. There might have been problems caused by Greek Cypriot fanatics but dealing with these must this time would have been done by the Greek Cypriots themselves.Ofocourse if you were to be forced for a solution you'd not stop the fanatics from sabotaging the state or even trying to destroy us.

Finally, i should add that we must not forget history but rather learn from it not to let the same things happen again.Did the Germans or the French forget the second world war or did they rather form the European Union in which even for example Greek Cypriot Pseudo state with its 700thousand population has one minister and Germany of 110 times more population also has one?


*Also you should stop this Byzantine Tricks strategy. With one hand you're shaking our hands and with the other you're trying to finger us.What do you mean by your message at the other topic implying that Turkish Cypriots are thieves?


*In 1963, Even the VicePresident Dr Kutchuks office was attacked by Greek Terrorists, he survived because he was not there.

*Piratis, i can give enough information to prove that the Turkish Cypriots did not leave but rather were forced to leave the Republic to persuade any ready to learn person.But because of the time constraint i cannot write very long messages so i'll have to give few examples at a time.