Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

I think you are brilliant ! Good night sweet dreams.

[Natty]

Thank you Miltiades!! Again that's very sweet of you...oh I'm blushing now

Goodnight!! Looking forward to reading your messages tomorrow (in fact everyones messages! )

Peace!

[rolo]

ok Piratis


the law does not exist, i never stated it existed i asked you if you knew of any such law. , thats fine thanks - you deny it yes?

[andri_cy]

I have never voted in any Cypriot election by the virtue of the fact that living in the UK , The polling stations are a little too far away. I made a promise though that when the first Pan-Cypriot party is formed and consisting of all Cypriots , might even include some new comers to our shores , I shall travel on foot if necessary to get to that Polling station and cast my vote for the party representing all Cypriots. If I was 10-15 years younger I would consider a change in employment and seek new pastures , but at 60 it is a trifle too late. Imagine a political party , lets say a party like the Labour in the UK , with Piratis as the minister of foreign affairs , Kikapu as the Chancellor , not forgetting Kifeas as the President , mrfromng as education minister , Zypezokyli most definitely will be the Minister without portfolio , and so as not to sound sexist andrycy the United nations rep , as for lysi I thought the f arts minister , uniqueearhing could be appointed as the Animal welfare minister . Almost forgot Viewpoint , he of course will also be The President , so we have two , not rotating but simultaneously .
Bananiot I thought would make an excellent Home affairs Minister , and finally lets have Theresa as the minister for transport so she can drive us all mad with her anti West outbursts. I of course would apply to become the immigration and Cultures Minister answerable only to divine powers.

Doesn't Natty get a job?

Natty you are too sweet for a job!!! Oh my I got one. I wonder what that says about me lol

[Piratis]

You are talking about individual rights, not community rights. You have 60% more chance of being elected than me due the fact that you are GC, surely this is unfiar balance in your favor that will insure we TCs dont get a look into the running of our country.

I have 60% more chance elected as what? And how do I have 60% more chance?

I am more than willing to accept a system were me and you have the exact same chance of being elected at any position and I do not witch to have even 1% more chance than you do (nor 1% less chance than you either)

Arent you contradicting yourself by saying that we can stop the car then you say we cannot, who will determine when we can stop the car and how will we do it if the driver is a GC? beg?

What I am saying is that you can stop the "car" if the "car" moves out of the path it is supposed to move on (human rights, democracy, EU acquis etc). You will stop it with the veto power you will have on several critical issues such as the above.

As individual rights are concerned I agree but what do we do about our community rights of one community dominating and controlling the other.

Having one country means having one united people. If the individual rights of every citizens are protected, if the representation of TCs in all bodies is guaranteed, if Turkish is official language and all religions are treated in the exact same way by the state and you have a veto power to stop any decision that can change this balance, isn't this a way to guarantee that no community can dominate another while at the same time we maintain the unity of one Cypriot people and democracy?

Quoting figures means nothing when u do not put in place a mechanism that will take into account each communities wishes without forcing the will of one community on the other.

Democracy is a system that allows countries to take decisions. This decisions need to be within certain limits that nobody can brake (human rights, minority rights, democracy, everything else said in the constidution etc). Beyond that some decisions should be taken, and there is no country were all citizens need to agree for something to be made.

So what you are really saying is that 8GCs can vote against 2TCs and make decisions on behalf of the TC community against their will?

Apart from the critical issues that TCs will have a power then all the other decisions will be decided by Cypriots as a whole. If you want everything to be decided separately then how is that having one Cypriot people? That having 2 separate nations, not one.

This is what your own Sevgul describes when she said:

The main problem concerning `reunification` of the island for the mainstream Turkish Cypriot media is that it is subconsciously based on `two separate entities coming together`, not seeing that this is a remnant of `Taksim` policies… The focus is on `Bizonality` and with this, the `legitimization` of `the results of 1974`… No one is contesting that any future cooperation of our communities should be based on multiculturalism, rather than on the `hegemony` of the Greek Cypriot community in all fields… But how `bizonality` is perceived is a big problem because deep down, the ideology of `Taksim` is still there and has not been wiped out from the subconscious thinking of `duality` and `separatism` from the minds of some mainstream Turkish Cypriot journalists.

If you accept unification then you have to accept not just the word, but also its essence. Unification in essence means one Cypriot people. Are you willing to accept that?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

I have 60% more chance elected as what? And how do I have 60% more chance?

Piratis I will try to explain if we have a pool of 100 voters 80GC 20TC you have a 80% potential of getting elected I as a TC only have the potential of 20% of the total votes. So when you consider that and the fact that we live in a screwed up society where no GCs will vote for me and no TCs will vote for you in reality you have a head start of 60% of the vote which allows me no chance of being elected. We are not exposed to the same level of voters and knowing our people they will not look out of the box and we are not mature enough to realize that it should be the best man for the job and not what his ethnic backround is. You have to try and understand this risk for us, this would mean putting our future in the hands of GCs who will administer human rights and democracy, who we judge on their past performance which was a total disaster. The only peaceful time and harmony I have recollections of or examples to draw from are the past 32 years, do I want to risk this and be ruled by GCs, what would you do if you were in my shoes? please be sincere and dont give me all the usual rhetoric.

I am more than willing to accept a system were me and you have the exact same chance of being elected at any position and I do not witch to have even 1% more chance than you do (nor 1% less chance than you either)

You as an individual no problem but the 80% weight of your community against the 20% of mine is a balance that will ensure we do not get a look in and that a united Cyprus will become a GC state with the TCs as just another minority. Thanks but no thanks.

What I am saying is that you can stop the "car" if the "car" moves out of the path it is supposed to move on (human rights, democracy, EU acquis etc). You will stop it with the veto power you will have on several critical issues such as the above.

Who will decide those critical issues? and will both sides adhere to those, dont forget in the past Gc didnt even adhere to their supreme court decision and yo u are the masters of using loop hole to undermine and reduce or eliminate the other sides authority (Akritas).

Having one country means having one united people. If the individual rights of every citizens are protected, if the representation of TCs in all bodies is guaranteed, if Turkish is official language and all religions are treated in the exact same way by the state and you have a veto power to stop any decision that can change this balance, isn't this a way to guarantee that no community can dominate another while at the same time we maintain the unity of one Cypriot people and democracy?

It is this representation that is they key for many TCs no the land, settlers or army these inho can be solved one way or another as TCs are very flexible on these issues but the issue of what role will the TCs play in detrermining their own destiny is of utmost importance.

Democracy is a system that allows countries to take decisions. This decisions need to be within certain limits that nobody can brake (human rights, minority rights, democracy, everything else said in the constidution etc). Beyond that some decisions should be taken, and there is no country were all citizens need to agree for something to be made.

Democracy is a system which can be manipulated and bent to suit the majority rule. Many so called advanced countries still have minority problems look at France, the minority groups there are still second class citizens they are discriminated against everyday yet France claims to be an example to the world. What is the EU doing about? Why dont those people run to the ECHR every time they are refused a job due their ethnic backround? we do not want to face similar problems here and want to feel part of a united Cyprus not just another minority community waiting for favors or to be treated correctly by a GC state.

Apart from the critical issues that TCs will have a power then all the other decisions will be decided by Cypriots as a whole. If you want everything to be decided separately then how is that having one Cypriot people? That having 2 separate nations, not one.

When you say Cypriots as a whole this means the majority which are the GCs, how will we object or have our voice heard, whos to say the Gcs will not just roll over us and decide what it best for them and not us as a whole.
Your ideal is somewhere in the future when we all believe we are Cypriots and the best man gets the job and acts for better of all Cypriots. This is still a long way off and cannot be forced.

This is what your own Sevgul describes when she said

I understand what Sevgul is saying but as I mentioned before the mentality of one people one nation does not drop out of the sky it has to be cultivated and nurtured over time. Unfortunately we lost that chance in 1960 and Tcs especially are very weary and untrusting that GCs will have their best interests at heart, thats why the safety valves are necessary to allow TCs time to realize that GCs do want to share the island in all respects and not just want to dominate due to their numerical superiority. This will also all GCs time to realize we can also be trusted and that we have no intention of blocking matters that will be for the benefit of the all Cypriots.

If you accept unification then you have to accept not just the word, but also its essence. Unification in essence means one Cypriot people. Are you willing to accept that?

There are many degrees of unification, the unification we do not want is the one where we are assimilated into the GC majority population, we want to be able to control our own destiny and not be forced to live in a united Cyprus under purely GC rule discriminated gainst becuase we are TCs.

[Piratis]

Piratis I will try to explain if we have a pool of 100 voters 80GC 20TC you have a 80% potential of getting elected I as a TC only have the potential of 20% of the total votes. So when you consider that and the fact that we live in a screwed up society where no GCs will vote for me and no TCs will vote for you in reality you have a head start of 60% of the vote which allows me no chance of being elected. We are not exposed to the same level of voters and knowing our people they will not look out of the box and we are not mature enough to realize that it should be the best man for the job and not what his ethnic backround is.

If you are talking about being elected as a member of the parliament or something similar, then with the garnteened proportional representation we will have the exact same chances of being elected. E.g the 100GC voters will elect 10 MPs and the 20TC voters will elect 2TC. So I I would have 10/100 chance of being elected and you would have 20/2 chance of being elected wich is the same thing.

If you are talking about presidential elections, again I would be more than glad if you are given guarantees for your proportional representation. For example every 5 terms of president 1 should be a TC.
So I will have 4/100 chance to be elected and you will have 1/20 chance, which is again the same.

As you wouldn't accept a system that would give to me 60% more chances of being elected, I also would not accept a system that would give to you more chances of being elected. We should all have the same chances and those that get elected should have the save power regardless of the race they belong.

Is this acceptable to you? Or something that is unfair to you (e.g. me having more chances to be elected) is not accepted, while something that is unfair to me it is?

. You have to try and understand this risk for us, this would mean putting our future in the hands of GCs who will administer human rights and democracy, who we judge on their past performance which was a total disaster. The only peaceful time and harmony I have recollections of or examples to draw from are the past 32 years, do I want to risk this and be ruled by GCs, what would you do if you were in my shoes? please be sincere and dont give me all the usual rhetoric.

Maybe you had a peaceful time for the past 32 years, but we never had such thing for the last 500 years, since the time you arrived on our island. If you call the past of GCs a "disaster" then what can we say about the past of Turks on this island?? So stop to pretend to be the victim. You have absolutely no right to ask for the violation of our human and democratic rights, and it is totally idiotic from you if you expect that we will ever accept such thing.

You as an individual no problem but the 80% weight of your community against the 20% of mine is a balance that will ensure we do not get a look in and that a united Cyprus will become a GC state with the TCs as just another minority. Thanks but no thanks.

18% is what you are. If 18% is not a minority, then having your 18% power share means that you do not have a minority power share but an equal power share.

There are many degrees of unification, the unification we do not want is the one where we are assimilated into the GC majority population, we want to be able to control our own destiny and not be forced to live in a united Cyprus under purely GC rule discriminated against becuase we are TCs.

There are 2 points here:
1) To be assimilated in a country under purely GC rule where you will be discriminated against.
The answer to this is a clear NO and I don't understand how you can say "purley GC" when you will have 18% proportional representation, including 1 in every 5 presidents. How is that "purely GC"??? It is purely Cypriot, and you are 18% of Cypriots!
Also, with your religion, language etc official and protected there is no way you will be assimilated. And along with your proportional representation you will also have your veto powers on important issues, so you can not be discriminated either, even if we wanted to do that.

2) "we want to be able to control our own destiny"

You live in Cyprus which belongs to all Cypriots and you are 18% of Cypriots. If you want to control your own destiny alone do it, but Cyprus belongs to you only by 18% and with that 18% you can not control it. Get it?

[Kikapu]

[quote="Piratis. E.g the 100GC voters will elect 10 MPs and the 20TC voters will elect 2TC. So I I would have 10/100 chance of being elected and you would have 20/2 chance of being elected wich is the same thing. [/quote]

Viewpoint,

If I were you, I would take those odds and sign on the dotted line before Piratis corrects his mistake.

[rolo]

[Pyrpolizer]

So when you consider that and the fact that we live in a screwed up society where no GCs will vote for me and no TCs will vote for you in reality you have a head start of 60% of the vote which allows me no chance of being elected.

You are right. This problem exists everywhere there are minorities. For example does any hispanic have any chance to be elected president in the US? Or a muslim in any European Country? Or a Greek living in Constantinople becoming president of Turkey? On the other hand though you have to consider what real chance a simple white skin, christian protestant, average American has to be elected president of the US. One in 250 million? ? ?
So let the problems that affect some tiny elites be problems between those tiny elites. We (GCs+TCs) don’t care, and our everyday lives will not change one iota whoever of them is elected.

The real problems rise when there is discrimination against a specific minority in local authority bodies e. g Municipalities, at usual government jobs e. g Police, and at key Administrative positions e. g Ministers, district Police Superintentants etc etc.

So as far as our little island is concerned: We don’t have any past record of fair treatment to our TC minority compatriots due to the events of the 60s. We have not yet started living together to establish such a good record. So in all honesty I don’t expect the TCs to gamble their future by trusting the GCs to treat them fairly. The only way through is either a Federation or a Unitary state with 2 districts each one adminitrated mostly by GCs/TCs. So both the Gcs and the Tcs will establish their own good records.


NB. I believe the GCs will establish a better record.