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[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

Denktash is gone that's true.
Is Talat any better? For me a guy who simply cranches out the time, just hoping you will get out of your isolation without at the same time any GC refugees returning, is the same like Denktash asking for prtition on the same conditions.

Talat is no Denktas far from it the day you realize this and stop believeing your press the day you will realize that if you cant negotiate a solution with this guy you will neveer negotiate one.

In continuation to my previous message:
Do you know what the stronger argument in favor of the Anan Plan was for me personally? Well, many GC people were saying: vote yes, don’t lose this opportunity, OK it’s not a good plan but the common target of the TCs and us is to get rid of Turkey. As soon as this happens the TCs are very cooperative, they want more than us to make the solution work, they will come first and propose us to correct this plan.

You are right in your observations but the GCs have yet to come to terms with the idea working closely and sharing with TCs, they to have had the whole cake for a long time and they will not give it up that easy. If you want to get rid of Turkey you have to allow the TCs to stand on ther own 2 feet economcially so they are not dependent on Turkey for support then you will allow TCs to move closer to GCs until that time you cannot expect anything different.

Unfortunately however we had the previous experience of the 60s when the Tcs were not so cooperative in correcting unworkable agreements. So how could I gamble my future once again voting yes to the Anan Plan?

This was not one sided due to hidden agendas.

You always talk about your fears against the GCs. Please stop for a moment and think of the fears of the GCs….

You are 101% correct to have your own fears otherwise you would not be normal and I and many Tcs would their utmost to put them to rest as long as we were not being exploited or attempts to dominate and reduce us just to any minortiy status. We should be regarded as your equal partner.

[Piratis]

Talat is no Denktas far from it the day you realize this and stop believeing your press the day you will realize that if you cant negotiate a solution with this guy you will neveer negotiate one.

Does Talat accept that "trnc" is an illegal pseudo state and that the illegal criminal occupation should end and every Cypriot should get all his human and democratic rights back without racist discriminations?

He is no different that Denctash. If your argument is that no TC is much different than Denctash, I would agree with you about the majority of TCs, and agree that negotiating with you is a total waste of time since you do not care about respecting any human rights or democracy and the only thing you want is to use the army of Turkey to steal from us our land and gain on our loss.

You are 101% correct to have your own fears otherwise you would not be normal and I and many Tcs would their utmost to put them to rest as long as we were not being exploited or attempts to dominate and reduce us just to any minortiy status. We should be regarded as your equal partner.

Not only you do not care to accommodate our fears, but you insist on violating our human and democratic rights and stealing our land.

On the other hand, we are more than willing to accommodate all your fears within the principles of human rights and democracy, something you reject since as I said all you care is how you will gain on our loss.

18% is a minority. Stop denying things that even a 2 year old knows.

18% having the same power as the 82% is UNDEMOCRATIC, did you forget the principles of democracy (from the USA) I gave you some time ago? Do you want them again.

So no, we will accept nothing undemocratic. So go back to your pseudo state and come back only when you are ready to accept democracy, or when Turkey will not be able to force her illegalities anymore, at which point you will accept democracy either you like it or not.

Beyond that there is nothing more to discuss with people like you that do not respect human rights and do not accept democracy.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Does Talat accept that "trnc" is an illegal pseudo state and that the illegal criminal occupation should end and every Cypriot should get all his human and democratic rights back without racist discriminations?

He is not promoting recognition and not saying no need for dialogue, dont forget he was the one who kept his hand extended in hope of direct talks.

He is no different that Denctash. If your argument is that no TC is much different than Denctash, I would agree with you about the majority of TCs, and agree that negotiating with you is a total waste of time since you do not care about respecting any human rights or democracy and the only thing you want is to use the army of Turkey to steal from us our land and gain on our loss.

If you view it a total waste of time then feel free to leave no one is stopping you. We do not want purely GC administered human rights and democracy I have told you this many times so wise up and look for ways to resolve issues where TCs are included not excluded.

Not only you do not care to accommodate our fears, but you insist on violating our human and democratic rights and stealing our land.

Change the record GC human right and democracy do not impress us, find a solution that we can both agree to becuase its you that rejected the last one.

On the other hand, we are more than willing to accommodate all your fears within the principles of human rights and democracy, something you reject since as I said all you care is how you will gain on our loss.

Rubbish

18% is a minority. Stop denying things that even a 2 year old knows.

18% having the same power as the 82% is UNDEMOCRATIC, did you forget the principles of democracy (from the USA) I gave you some time ago? Do you want them again.

Go negotiate with a 2 year old you may able to fool a child but not us, we are 2 equal partners north and south please try to absorb this fact.

So no, we will accept nothing undemocratic. So go back to your pseudo state and come back only when you are ready to accept democracy, or when Turkey will not be able to force her illegalities anymore, at which point you will accept democracy either you like it or not.

Thats your right but dont expect us to come running back, we cna wait for that swing in power you feel with happen in the next trillion years.

Beyond that there is nothing more to discuss with people like you that do not respect human rights and do not accept democracy.

Not a problem with me but dont forget it is this attitude which keeps things the way they are.

[Piratis]

What keeps things the way they are is the illegal Turkish occupation. Why do you insist on illegalities and crimes?

The human rights and democracy I am asking for is the same that exist in all other democratic countries in the world. Since you forgot, here they are for you again:

Majority Rule and Minority Rights
All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY
Sovereignty of the people.

Government based upon consent of the governed.

Majority rule.

Minority rights.

Guarantee of basic human rights.

Free and fair elections.

Equality before the law.

Due process of law.

Constitutional limits on government.

Social, economic, and political pluralism.

Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise.

These elements define the fundamental elements of all modern democracies, no matter how varied in history, culture, and economy. Despite their enormous differences as nations and societies, the essential elements of constitutional government--majority rule coupled with individual and minority rights, and the rule of law--can be found in Canada and Costa Rica, France and Botswana, Japan and India.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

So I repeat, we will not accept, or even discuss anything, that does not respect human rights and is not democratic (as defined above).
If you do not accept these principles then there is nothing more to talk about. I don't want me and my children to live in an undemocratic country were human rights do not exist, just to accommodate your greediness.

[rolo]

Government based upon consent of the governed.



ahhhh so this is where it collapsed, did the tcs CONSENT to the attrocities heaped upon them though.

The killings, the economic deprivations, the EOKA, Grivas in charge of national gaurd, One third of them being made homeless. Living on 3% of the island, in enclaves etc etc etc. Ports of entry being governed solely by gc officials. Laws being passed without their approval. Thousands of mainland greek soldiers being on the island. The list goes on and on. Which of these did the tcs consent to?

And who oversaw all of this, and who voted him back for 14 years?

[Piratis]

Rolo, the past has not been good.

Indeed the government did not have the consent of the governed for most part of our history. The Turks were ruling the island for 300 years without the consent of the majority of Cypriots and not only that but they have butchered 10s of thousands of people just because they didn't belong to their race. Then the British again didn't have the consent of the governed. In the end instead of asking the governed what they want, the foreigners forced on us what they wanted.

So indeed in the past we didn't have in Cyprus what should have. This is why the Cypriots should finally be allowed to choose in a democratic way what they want for their country.

Of course it is impossible for every single Cypriot to agree about the future of our country. This is why the decision will be taken in a democratic way, always with respect to the human rights of the minorities.

So are you finally going to allow for Cyprus to have democracy and human rights? Or you will refuse this like you have done for the most part of our common history on this island from 1570 until 2006, by giving lame excuses and selectively choosing tiny parts of history and forgetting everything else just to excuse even more crimes against us?

[miltiades]

A man standing on his own has as many rights as a man standing with a croud.
Just thought I say that.
Piratis says:

"This is why the Cypriots should finally be allowed to choose in a democratic way what they want for their country. "
You include our Cypriot compatriots of course Piratis don't you .

[Pyrpolizer]

Talat is no Denktas far from it the day you realize this and stop believeing your press the day you will realize that if you cant negotiate a solution with this guy you will neveer negotiate one.

Well if you think he is different then prove it to us. Plenty of threads in here to give us the necessary information.

If you want to get rid of Turkey you have to allow the TCs to stand on ther own 2 feet economcially so they are not dependent on Turkey

The only difficulty here is this way you solve ALL YOUR problems while at the same time ALL OUR problems stay. Why you don’t accept to solve part of your problem (free trade from Varoshia) while at the same time we also solve part of our refugees problem?
Hey if you solve all your problems, sure you will get rid of Turkey. What would keep you getting rid of US next?

You are 101% correct to have your own fears otherwise you would not be normal and I and many Tcs would their utmost to put them to rest as long as we were not being exploited or attempts to dominate and reduce us just to any minortiy status.

In a Federation the concept of minority-majority is poof-off. We accepted Federation. Isn’t that enough to "off" your fears? Now, tell me how are you going to "off" my fears?

[rolo]

ok piratis

i get what you are saying, but that has to be earned, Does passing a law relieving tcs of all their land within 40 years accomplish that?


this will cemment further division.............what is your govt playing at? They must already own half the tc land in the south. Whay will they do with it give it back to them as part of some settlement, building bargaining chips for the next round of talks.

Basically your govt is holding them captive, they are prisoners on cyprus, if they leave cyprus to live in another country they lose their lands, which they will lose in forty years anyway. Your govt has built another layer of division.


By the way back to original point ....
Has your govt or has your govt not passed this law relieving cypriot turks not being in a certain place at a certain time of their turkish cypriot lands ?

If so does it have the consent of the people which it serves?
Will those people return the same govt to power and lead ?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

So I repeat, we will not accept, or even discuss anything, that does not respect human rights and is not democratic (as defined above).
If you do not accept these principles then there is nothing more to talk about. I don't want me and my children to live in an undemocratic country were human rights do not exist, just to accommodate your greediness.

Ok lets address what you call human rights and democracy and what I say will be GC administered human rights and democracy.

In a united Cyprus Piratis style we have GC majority rule becuase numerically they are much larger.

Elected Government is GCs
Government posts are GCs
Administrative depts are GCs

Hasan applies for a job at Ministry for education, those evlauating his application are all GCs, can Hasan really expect fair treatment how will he know? how will he be sure that the Yorgo was was chosen because he was the better candidate and not because he is GC and the son of one of those GCs on board?

You will probably say you can take your claim to the necessary international body. Do we TCs really want to have to face years of waiting and going to courts to get our rights? We do not want to have to face these difficulties in our daily lives. What will guarantee that these thinsg will not happen or do I have to face this GC administered human right and democracy everytime I want to pay my water bill or taxes or apply for planning permission. I do not want to be a second class citizen that even some people of a different ethnic orgin face in even the more developed countries.

That Education ministry board that evaluated Hasans application needs to have TCs representation to ensure each application is treated fairly and that Hasan is left with no doubt in his mind that he lost the job on his merits and not because he is a TC.