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WHY HAS THE GC NOT ARRESTED EOKA MURDERERS

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:30 am

Issy1956 wrote:Agree totally with you Bananiot- the GC persuit of Enosis bought us to this point today-where we might have been without it who knows.


Regardless of its political correctness or not, the pledged or goal of Enosis, under those circumstances, was a perfectly legitimate one, since at the time it was the genuine wish and desire of the vast majority of the people of this country.

To claim that the pursuit of enosis alone is the sole cause of what we face today, brushing under the carpet the fact that Turkey had as its secret mission since the early 50's to "re-conquer" Cyprus, or at least to partition it so that it controls part or the whole of it, and that today it is Turkey the sole responsible for the situation we are facing now for its continues insistence to want impose unacceptable and illegitimate solutions, is a gross provocation and an insult to our intelligence to say the least!

Why, since the goal of enosis was dropped by the official and elected GC leadership, at least 38 years ago (since 1968,) we still have no solution and Turkey still occupies the north? If in 1974 it invaded in order to re-establish the constitutional order, and instead of doing so, it occupied and partitioned the country, why isn’t Turkey the perpetrator of what we currently experience?
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Postby Piratis » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:41 am

How in heaven the Cypriots alone could decide the Cyprus Constitution when in 1959 we were fighting for enosis, it really beats me.


If most Cypriots wanted enosis then why did the Colonialists fought us for asking for nothing more than our RIGHT?

If you missed it, here is the UN resolution about decolonization, go and read it.

the Assembly approved resolution 1541 (XV), defining free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government


So colonialists didn't have the right to be in Cyprus in the first place, and they didn't have the right to restrict us and fight against us from our perfectly legal options.

Agree totally with you Bananiot- the GC persuit of Enosis bought us to this point today-where we might have been without it who knows.


What brought us were we are today are the foreign invaders of Cyprus (Ottomans (Turks)/British) who ruled the island against the will of the majority of Cypriots, and not that the majority of Cypriots wanted to take decisions for their own island.

So according to some, when the Turks ruled Cyprus it was OK, when the British ruled Cyprus it was OK, and the problem was when the majority of Cypriots wanted to rule Cyprus and take the decisions for their own island in a democratic way instead of some foreigners!!
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Postby Natty » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:25 am

The 1960 Cyprus constitution (Based on the London-Zurich agreements), and the asscoiated Treaty of Guarantee, were unique in two major respects. The agreements were devised by three conservative Goverments in London, Athens and Ankara-non of them destined to last for very long. The Cypriots were simply presented with the results and told brusquely that if they did not accept they would be faced with Partition. Actually, the constitution itself, contained the seeds of partition within it. It continued the old Ottoman and British colonial practice of creating seperate categories of citizenship-now designated as Greek and Turkish instead of the traditional 'Muslim' and 'non-Muslim'. Separate municipalities were provided for. Greek and Turkish voters were to have seperate elections. Civil service and police posts were to be shared in a ratio of seventy per cent Greek and and thirty per cent Turkish; almost doubling the Turkish presence. In the army, in fact, the ratio was fixed at sixty-forty. The seventy-thirty ratio also obtained in the House of Representatives and the cabinet. The Vice Presidency of the Republic, reserved for a Turk, carried the right of Veto. Turkey also won the right to station troops on the Island, as did Greece. The Treatyof Guarantee gave the Goverments in Ankara, Athens and London the right to intervene in Cyprus either together or (in a clause inserted at the instigationof Turkey) alone. A 'seperate majority' provision on matters concerning tax and electoral law gave the Turkish Cypriot minority an additional right of veto in the House of Represenattive. In that House, seperate majorities of Greek and Turkish members were required to modify fiscal, electoral or municipal laws. This meant that a bill supported by thirty-five Greek and seven Turkish members could in theory be defeated by eight Turkish votes. Those who look kindly on measures of 'affirmative action' and 'positive discrimination' for minorities do so in order to compensate for past injustices. It is not obvious for which past discriminations the Turkish Minoritywas being compensated. Meanwhile, ninety-nine square miles of Cyprus were removed from the territory of the Republic and placed under British authority. To this day, the Cypriot goverment has no juristiction over these basis or the uses to which they are put. No other democratic country has ever imposed or accepted conditions of that kind. Cyprus then, got a form of independance long overdue. But it was compelled to concede more than one-third of it's legislative and administrative machinary, not to a minority, but to an eighteen per cent minority which, supported by a foreighn country, had opposed that independance all along. It was an unpromising start. During the London negotiations, Archbishop Makarios raised thirteen objections to the agreements and presented them to the British Foreign Secretary, Selwyn Lloyd. Makarios was told to 'take it or leave it', with the clear implication that 'leaving it' meant partition and his own destruction. He took it. Many if not most, commentators on the unhappy years that lay ahead have stressed Greek and Turkish atavism, sectarianism, intransigence and intolerance. The word 'Byzantine' gets hurled around a good deal. Such observations fail to account for two things. One is that, even at the hour of their independance, the Cypriots were treated as objects rather than subjects in their own country and their own deliberations. The second is that a legacy of intercommunal tension had been created by outside powers, and then built into an imposed constitution. Most culpable in this were the British, whose crass and ocasionally capricious policy had led to the bloodshed and discord in the first place. There are enough villains in the story withought inventing new ones; this was not an occasion when Anglo-Saxon phlegm and fair-mindedness were seen to their best advantage. Cyprus got it's independance unnecessarily late, and under very trying and onerous conditions. Archbishop Makarios was right when he said that the agreement had created a state but not a nation. The fragility of it's institutions and it's alliances, internal and external, might have been overcome with time. But time, for various reasons, was something that Cyprus was not to be allowed.


...Sir Hugh Foot, now Lord Caradon, the last British Governer of the Island, and the least inclined to play the bully or the manipulator, still gives the game away in some respects in his memoirs. In discussing the 1958 plan for limited self-Goverment, which represented a retreat from the earlier policy of British cum Turkish colonial rule, in 'A start in Freedom':

"I knew of course that the Turks, who were to be approached first, would strongly dislike some aspects of the policy, and I wrote to the Deputy Governor on 7 January from London to say that everything would depend on whether the British goverment would stand up to the Turks. But I thought that our absolute assurance that no final decision on the future of the island would be made withought Turkish approval might outweigh their objections. They were in fact given absolute veto on long term policy."

Having thus confirmed Melih Esenbel's account above, Sir Hugh adds, with the sort of British fair-mindedness that tends to drive one wild: "Much more difficult to persuade Archbishop Makarios and the Greeks, it seemed to me. But the return of the Archbishop to Cyprus, the ending of the Emergency, the promise of self-goverment might be sufficient to sway them" Archbishop Makarios, who had emerged as the spiritual and temporal leader of the Greek Cypriots, was then in Athens, having been deported and held without trial in the Seychelles islands before his release. In other words, if the Greek Cypriot majority would accept a Turkish 'absolute veto on long term policy', they could be allowed the return of their chosen religious and political leader, the end of Emergency rule by foreign soilders (though not the departure of those soilders) and 'the promise of self-goverment'-which meanwhile looked rather qualified by the Turkish 'veto'. But Britian held the force majeure, and it was made clear to the Cyrpiots that they could choose only between this and a worse offer. It took a while for the Turkish Leadership to realize the bargain it was getting. Sir Hugh records the riots instigated from Anakara and the rough deplomacy exerted from the same quarter, noting that, "Turkish instransigence was such that no concievable proposal we put to them would be acceptable-short of partition"....



I got the quotes from the book 'Hostage to History:Cyprus'.

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Postby Natty » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:53 am

Issy1956 wrote:Agree totally with you Bananiot- the GC persuit of Enosis bought us to this point today-where we might have been without it who knows.


[quote]..These two psuedo-realistic interpretations have to compete in popularity with a third, which might be called the liberal or bien-pensant view. It is most pithily summarized by Ms Nacy Crawshaw, at the conclusion of her voluminous but not exhaustive book 'The Cyprus Revolt'. Ms Crawshaw, who reported Cyprus for the Guardian in the 1950's and 1960's, ends her narrative like this: "In Cyprus itself the Turkish Invasion marked the climax of the struggle for union with Greece which had began more than one hundred years earlier. The Greek Cypriots had paid dearly in the cause of enosis: in terms of human suffering the cost to both communities was beyond calculation". Here pseudo-realism is replaced by pseudo-humanitarianism. 'We are all (it goes without saying) sorry for the victim. But it is, we very much regret to say, the victims fault'. All these consoling explanantions make it easier for those responsible to excuse themselves and for the rest of the world to forget about Cyprus. But such a loss of memory would be unpardonable. It would mean forgetting about the bad and dangerous precedant that has been set by invasion; by a larger power suiting itself by altering geography and demography. It would mean overlooking the aspiration of a European people to make a passage from colonial rule to sovereignty in one generation. And it would mean ignoring an important example, afforded by Cyprus, of the way in which small countries and peoples are discounted by the superpowers (and, on occasion, by liberal commentators). The argument of this book ('Hostage to History'), is that the Turkish invasion was not 'the climax of the struggle for union with Greece', but the outcome of a careless and arrogent series of policies over which Cypriots had little, or no control. The conventional picture, of a dogged and narrow battle of Greek against Turk, has become, with further and better knowledge, simplistic and deceptive. Only four years after they had painfully achieved independance, the Cypriots became the victims of a superpower design for partition. This partition reflected only the strategic requirements of outside powers, and did not conform to any local needs. The economy of Cyprus, with it's distribution of water resources and agriculture, makes partition an absurdity. So does, or did, the distribution of population. And there is certainly no room for two machineries of state, unless at least one of them is imposed by another country. The imposition of Partition necessitated the setting of Greek against Turk, and Greek against Greek. As I will show, strenuos efforts were made in that direction. They maximized all the possible disadvantages, and led to dire results for Greece and Turkey as well as for Cyprus....


....In 1956 Alan Lennox-Boyd told the House of Commons that a Greek Cypriot demand for union with Greece would be met by a British-sponsored plibiscite for Turks only. If the Turkish Cypriots voted to join Turkey, the island would be partitioned. Thus, by demanding the whole of Cyprus, the Turks could be assured of getting at least half of it. Whereupon Dr Kutchuk demanded that the island be divided along the 35th parallel. The British interest in helping to stimulate this demand is too obvious to need underlining. 'Divide and Rule', of course, has come to translate historically as 'Divide and Quit'. The British say that leaving (or partition) is the last thing the will do-and then it is the last thing they do. Subsequent quarrles among the inhabitants can be taken as evidence that they just do not get on without British guidance.[quote]


The second quote is rather interesting...

Again, I took the above quotes from the book 'Hostage to History:Cyprus'. (Sorry to keep using quotes, it's just that they pretty much sum up what I have/want to say! :))


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Postby Issy1956 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:46 am

Kifeas,
I agree with the point that you make that enosis was not the sole reason of how we got here today and I have no wish to sweep anything under the carpet. No doubt that Turkey and nationalist TC's used the position to further their own interests but surely this would not have been posible if the GC majority were struggling to remove the "english yoke" in favour of independence rather than enosis.
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Postby miltiades » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:58 am

Issy 1956
I agree entirely that if the 1955-59 struggle had as its' aim the Independence of Cyprus instead of Enosis perhaps things would have been different. It is sad that both communities are still "attached " in some ways to their perceived " motherlands " neglecting the Cypriot identity and in many ways denigrating our very own uniqueness as Cypriots. If only we looked at our IDs and realise that our nationality is stated as Cypriot , I'm not suggesting that we detach our selves totally from our ethnic background but why cant be like the Americans for instance a nation made up entirely of a multitude of ethnicities all referred to as Americans predominantly followed by American Italians , American Jews , American Polish etc etc.
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Postby NeverSayGoodbye » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:54 am

miltiades wrote:Issy 1956
I agree entirely that if the 1955-59 struggle had as its' aim the Independence of Cyprus instead of Enosis perhaps things would have been different. It is sad that both communities are still "attached " in some ways to their perceived " motherlands " neglecting the Cypriot identity and in many ways denigrating our very own uniqueness as Cypriots. If only we looked at our IDs and realise that our nationality is stated as Cypriot , I'm not suggesting that we detach our selves totally from our ethnic background but why cant be like the Americans for instance a nation made up entirely of a multitude of ethnicities all referred to as Americans predominantly followed by American Italians , American Jews , American Polish etc etc.

I disagree completely I believe that Greek-Cypriots have detached themselves completely from Greece aknowledging at the same time the common culture and history we share.
I know it doesnt sound very persuasive when you see the widespread usage of Greek flags in Cyprus but thats the trap we have fallen into when faced with the thousands of more turkish flags and lets not forget Pentadaktulos.
Not only have we detached ourselves from "motherland" but are solely responsible for our future.An example is our rejection of the Anan plan while Greece was for it.
The Turkish-cypriots not only have they not managed to separate themselves from Turkey but are prisoners of their "saviours"
Turkish-cypriots have been swallowed up by Turkey so when we talk about reunifaction I dont really understand with who we are suppose to reunificate with.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:50 am

Kifeas wrote:
Issy1956 wrote:Agree totally with you Bananiot- the GC persuit of Enosis bought us to this point today-where we might have been without it who knows.


Regardless of its political correctness or not, the pledged or goal of Enosis, under those circumstances, was a perfectly legitimate one, since at the time it was the genuine wish and desire of the vast majority of the people of this country.

To claim that the pursuit of enosis alone is the sole cause of what we face today, brushing under the carpet the fact that Turkey had as its secret mission since the early 50's to "re-conquer" Cyprus, or at least to partition it so that it controls part or the whole of it, and that today it is Turkey the sole responsible for the situation we are facing now for its continues insistence to want impose unacceptable and illegitimate solutions, is a gross provocation and an insult to our intelligence to say the least!

Why, since the goal of enosis was dropped by the official and elected GC leadership, at least 38 years ago (since 1968,) we still have no solution and Turkey still occupies the north? If in 1974 it invaded in order to re-establish the constitutional order, and instead of doing so, it occupied and partitioned the country, why isn’t Turkey the perpetrator of what we currently experience?


This is a very short sighted view because if you have signed an agreement to build a united Cyprus surely this should be your only aim. This means your agreement means absoulutely nothing, we should take this into consideration when signing any agreements with you in future and you may have hidden agendas although on the surface you appear you desire one thing you really have ulterior motives to serve your own purpose.

The Enosis dream was the main issue which sparked off the troubles which has lead us to where we are today. If you do not take into a considerable portion of your population when taking such major and sensative decisions as becoming part of Greece you will be faced with rebellion which is only natural and those people will fight with every means to halt their aniahalation or assimilation as was the case in other examples.

Turkey interevened and established a peaceful existence for all Cypriots reinforced by the last 32 years. I am pretty certain that the last 32years are much better existence than the years between 1960 to 1974 when the GCs were solely in control of Cyprus and its destiny. Now with regards to a solution dont forget the last attempt was resoundingly rejected by GCs for their own reasons right or wrong. So the blame for why we have no solution is not the responsiblity of just one side.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:00 am

NeverSayGoodbye
I disagree completely I believe that Greek-Cypriots have detached themselves completely from Greece aknowledging at the same time the common culture and history we share.
I know it doesnt sound very persuasive when you see the widespread usage of Greek flags in Cyprus but thats the trap we have fallen into when faced with the thousands of more turkish flags and lets not forget Pentadaktulos.
Not only have we detached ourselves from "motherland" but are solely responsible for our future.An example is our rejection of the Anan plan while Greece was for it.


That why your leader visits Greec after ever major meeting and consults them on all issues concerning the Cyprus problem. This is what we see god knows what else goes on. You also have military agreements between the south and Greece. Yo have a vast number of students who study in Greece and your popuiation visits Greece the most out of all the other countires in the world. You use their flag and national anthem. You always give Greece 12 points at Eurovision. You fly their flags at your national football matches. Doesnt sound like you have detached yourselves to much.

The Turkish-cypriots not only have they not managed to separate themselves from Turkey but are prisoners of their "saviours"
Turkish-cypriots have been swallowed up by Turkey so when we talk about reunifaction I dont really understand with who we are suppose to reunificate with.


We are economically dependent on Turkey are you aware of this fact? they are the only nation that have supported us not just financially but morally as well, they are always by our sides. If we are to detach ourselves from Turkey we need to become more economically independent and for that to happen we need to taken out of isolation which we all know is the policy of the GC side to main at all costs as they feel this make us want a solution the GCs want to impose. This mentality has not worked and will never work once the GCs realize they are cutting fo their noses despite their faces they will realize that this policy will keep us attached to Turkey for along time to come.
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Postby miltiades » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:29 pm

VP , has a valid point. The T/Cs are attached to Turkey for numerous reasons , moral support and economic help being the main issues here. We , however , although we ditched Enosis for good , still behave in some ways as if we are part of Greece. The flag of Cyprus through out Cyprus is hat we must aim to see one day.That is the only way one flag for all Cypriots , why not design one that encompasses some unique Cypriot atribute , there are I'm certain many such attributes that are common to all Cypriots.
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