Cyprus-Forum.com

[tcypriot]

In Switzerland there are 4 different official languages. Romanian which is spoken by around %0.5 of the Swiss people is also an official language.In Switzerland cantons that have one tenth(1/10) the population of the neighbouring ones have political equality with each other but on the other hand greek cypriots refuse to have political equality with the tcs that have a population which is at least one third of the greeks.

In the European Union, illegal greek republic of southern cyprus has one Commision(er) in the European Commision which might be referred as the "supranational" -council of ministers of the EU.And on the other hand Germany that has more than 110 times the population of the pseudo south cyprus administration, also has one Commision in the EU Commision. At many areas where unanimous voting is required, an illegal entity that has a population 110 times less than the one of for example Germany can actually "veto" decisions.

In Belgium, Wallons and Flemish people who have population percentages similar to the Greeks and Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus, live under a federal system very similar to one proposed in the Annan Plan.

And all these people are stupid for they share the political power equally with nations that are much much less in number(incomparable with the Greeks of Cyprus and the Turkishcypriots) and the greeks in Cyprus are clever that they use the population percentage as a means of offending the righteous and unescapeable reality of the political equality of the Turkish Cypriot Nation.

We do not deserve any less from other European Nations that share political equality with other nations that are more in number.

Our political equality is not a matter of discussion.

Whether Greeks will accept this or not is not the question but when the Greeks will realise the unescapeable truth, is.

[Piratis]

In Turkey, Kurds are 20% of the population, but the Turkish government doesn't even recognize they exist.

Switzerland is a confederation. Remind me because I don't remember: When was it that one community stole the land of the other in Switzerland?

In the 99% of unitary and federal states each person has exactly or approximately the same voting power. In Cyprus you demand that some citizens should have 4.5 more voting power because they are Muslims and they speak Turkish. Thats a racial discrimination that will not be accepted by people that value democracy.

In Belgium, Wallons and Flemish people who have population percentages similar to the Greeks and Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus, live under a federal system very similar to one proposed in the Annan Plan.

Thats just a lie. The Annan plan has nothing to do with Belgium. It was based on the Swiss model (this is written in the plan itself), but if you study the plan and compare it with what they have in Switzerland, the Annan plan is 100 times worst.

Example: In Switzerland the central state is above the cantons. According to the Annan plan the central state would not be above the component state. Not only this is not federation, its not even a confederation like Switzerland. It is simply a disguised partition and nothing more than that. the only real association between the two separate countries that would be created with the Annan plan is that of the GC state giving money to the TC state.

Our political equality is not a matter of discussion.

Not a matter of discussion indeed.

We do not deserve any less from other European Nations that share political equality with other nations that are more in number within various supranational or federal governance structures.

Take any EU country you want and I accept to apply their constitution in Cyprus. The truth is that the outrageous things that you are asking for because you have the tanks of Turkey behind you, are things that exist in no EU country.

[metecyp]

Not a matter of discussion indeed.

Would you accept the political equality of TCs and GCs if TCs accept that all refugees have the right to return and then two sides can come together to discuss how the bizonality can be achieved with minimum harm to refugee rights and how the unity of the new Cyprus state can be guaranteed with minimum harm to political equality of TCs?

[pantelis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm

Why re-invent the wheel?
The proposed EU constitution is already on the table. All Europeans, soonner or later, wiil have to adopt it or withdraw from the Union. The two communities need to study it and decide what is good for them and what not. Once this hurdle is passed, the rest are mere details. The laws, rights and responsibilities would apply to all, regardless of race or religion.
Are we anywhere near this point?

[metecyp]

Are we anywhere near this point?

I guess you're one of those people that believe that Cyprus problem will be solved by the EU. The GC side must be the only one that believes that the EU will solve the Cyprus problem. Even the EU itself says that the solution will be through the UN. Anyway I don't want to get into the discussion of if the EU will solve the problem or not. December 17th will clear some things for all of us. We'll see if Papadopoulos will use his veto if Turkey doesn't recognize the RoC (which is very unlikely in my opinion).

[Piratis]

Would you accept the political equality of TCs and GCs if TCs accept that all refugees have the right to return and then two sides can come together to discuss how the bizonality can be achieved with minimum harm to refugee rights and how the unity of the new Cyprus state can be guaranteed with minimum harm to political equality of TCs?

What I want is to live in a normal country, or at least my children to live in a normal country.

For me (not all GCs necessarily agree) democracy is more important than all refugees returning. This is because if some refugees do not return, but they get 100% compensated by Turkey, then as the time passes the refugee problem will become smaller. In 50 years from now this problem will barely exist.

On the other hand if our constitution is based on racial discrimination, and gives to some citizens more power than to some others, then this problem will become bigger as time passes.
It will become bigger because while today's generations know the circumstances under which we had to accept such things, the future generations will be less likely to accept such discrimination against them.

Such discrimination will maintain the conflict and separation between the two communities and it will inevitably lead to new big troubles in the future.

The solution should be viable. And to be viable it should be fair. If its unfair for current generations only, it would be difficult, but not impossible to maintain its viability. If it is unfair for all future generations as well, then the disaster would be inevitable.

The solution should not be the result of balance of power. It should be a fair solution and not a balanced solution. This is because what is fair today is always fair. On the other hand the balance of power changes and what is balanced today will not be the balance of tomorrow. The side that looses from the current balance, tomorrow will force changes to reflect the new balance. This way the circle of blood will never end.

[erolz]

What I want is to live in a normal country, or at least my children to live in a normal country.

There is no such thing as a 'normal' country. Even if there were there is nothing 'normal' about independent Cyprus. From it's very inception it has not been a normal country. If there is a 'normality' for countries (states) it is that their existance is a result of force of arms. Is that the normality you wish for your children?
What you really mean by 'normal' is a country where you (or your community) gets what it wants. You then 'spin' this (externaly to others and quite probably internaly to yourself as well) as being 'normal'.

For me (not all GCs necessarily agree) democracy is more important than all refugees returning.

You make out that democracy is a simple concept in both theroy and practice. It is not. You make out that democracy is always right and fair. It is not. You make out that it is a universal constant like the speed of light. It is not. What do you mean by democracy? That decisions are made by the majority? Or by the biggest single group? Is it democratic for a minority of a population to have its view imposed? In the UK it is normal for a minority of voters to 'win' elections both local and national. Is that democratic?
Your insitance on a child like simplistic view of 'democracy' is simply destroyed (for me) by your unwillingness to challenge 'democratic discrepencies' anywhere other than where they work against your (or your communites) interests. You are happy (apparently?) to be in a Union that is, by your own description below, based on racial descrimination and gives some citizens more powers than others. Yet you seem unconcerned about the fairness or democratic underpinning of this or the problems this may create in the future. Where is your belief in 'democracy' then?
To me it simly feels that you will be absoloute and dogmatic about a simplistic view of democracy when it suits your / your communites interest and not care about these _principals_ when it does not suit your / your communites interest.

On the other hand if our constitution is based on racial discrimination, and gives to some citizens more power than to some others, then this problem will become bigger as time passes.

Your usual 'trick' here. You take a desire for the TC COMMUNITY to have equality with the GC community and turn it into INDIVDUALS having more power. It is perfectly possible for every citizen to have the same rights and power and for the communites to have the same rights and powers between themselves as communites. Just as it is in the EU in many cases.

Such discrimination will maintain the conflict and separation between the two communities and it will inevitably lead to new big troubles in the future.

Again a 'nice' debating trick. You set up a false case that any equality between communites is descrimatory (but only within Cyprus / where it is in your interest to do so) and then use this false premis to extrapolate forward to 'new big troubles'.

The solution should be viable. And to be viable it should be fair. If its unfair for current generations only, it would be difficult, but not impossible to maintain its viability. If it is unfair for all future generations as well, then the disaster would be inevitable.

And who decides what is 'fair'? You? Certainly not the UN - you have rejected their attempt at a 'fair' solution. In an attempt to prove that what you (GC community) wants is 'fair' and what the TC community wants is 'unfair' you try and use 'principals'. Yet these 'principals' apply only where it is convient to you (GC community) and not where it is not. As such they are not 'principals' at all - merely conviences.

The solution should not be the result of balance of power. It should be a fair solution and not a balanced solution. This is because what is fair today is always fair. On the other hand the balance of power changes and what is balanced today will not be the balance of tomorrow. The side that looses from the current balance, tomorrow will force changes to reflect the new balance. This way the circle of blood will never end.

You show a willing nievety when it is convient. You act as though there is a universal unchanging 'fairness' that exists like 'gravity' exists. Fairness is not an absolute. Fairness is a human construct and what one person considers fair another may (and often does) consider unfair. What is consider today by many as being fair was not necessarily consider fair in the past by many. Fairness is no more absolute and unchanging as 'balance of power'.

Remind me because I don't remember: When was it that one community stole the land of the other in Switzerland?

ALL land is stolen land. The only 'difference' between your 'stolen' land and any other owned land is that your loss of land is more recent than most. I am reminded of two 'quotes'.
"property is theft"
"posession is 9/10ths of the law"

I am also reminded of my brothers (my real natural brother - not brother the poster here) simplistic commnet on the Cyprus situation in a recent discussion we had.
"You (GC) had a war. You lost. Get over it."

[Piratis]

ok so:

1)

You make out that democracy is always right and fair. It is not.

2)

ALL land is stolen land. The only 'difference' between your 'stolen' land and any other owned land is that your loss of land is more recent than most.

1) Democracy is the best we can have. If you do not believe in democracy then there is absolutely nothing to discuss. Maybe for you democracy is not something important. For me it is very important and I would never accept to live in an undemocratic country.
(EU is not a country. EU is a Union of independent countries)

2a)This might be true in most cases but not in our case. The time that Greeks fist came to Cyprus 3500 years ago the concept of a "country" did not exist. The locals of that time were living into separate autonomous villages. The Greeks simply built here their own city kingdoms without stealing the land from anybody.

2b) What you said there exactly supports my argument. So now Turkey has the power and therefore they can steal our land. Tomorrow that we will have more power, according to what you said, we would be perfectly justified to come and kill you and take away your property.
If you do not respect our human rights now, we will not respect yours later and so on and so forth. This way we will never have peace and the circle of blood will never end.
This way we will all loose. Your brother said that we lost a war. Sure we did. But have you won?
Who won are mainly the Americans and the British, and some elites in Turkey.

[erolz]

1) Democracy is the best we can have. If you do not believe in democracy then there is absolutely nothing to discuss. Maybe for you democracy is not something important. For me it is very important and I would never accept to live in an undemocratic country.
(EU is not a country. EU is a Union of independent countries)

No country has 'pure' democracy - whereby every decision is made by a straight unqualified vote of all the people and the largest single block always gets it way. There are as many different versions of democracy as there are countries. No country practices pure democracy without limits. Democracy can be oppressive. Almost all democracies have some form of limits on the will of the people (largest block - often an minority) - like the two houses of parliament in UK politics. Democracies evolve and change their structure and natures. The differences between direct proportional representation and 'first past the post' systems of democracy are real and create contradictions to your simplist views of democracy for just one example. Is every country that does not have direct proportional represntation undemocratic or not? You tell me as you seem to have a direct personal line into 'absoloute universal truth'. The concept of the 'tyranny of the majority' is real and exits and is one example of the limits of democracy.

You use (your own simplistic version) of democracy as a 'stick' with which to beat 'us'.

There are things that I believe in much more than democracy. Things like personal freedom and liberty and consensus and empthay and compassion and understanding and sympathy and the sanctatiy of human life and passive resitance. I certainly would never be willing to kill another human being in the name of 'democracy'. Democray (as it is actualy practised) is perhaps the best system we have now (though actualy it is a miriad of different systems) - that does not mean I believe or hope that we as humans beings will not find better ways to live togeather than we currently have.

You say you would not live in an undemocratic country. Does the RoC have proprtional representation? Would you leave the RoC if it did not? Would you be prepared to fight and kill other Cypriots to establish proprtional representation? Are decision in Cyprus (or anywhere else) made on a pure democratic basis or do large commercial interests influence and shape those decisions? You presumably believe the RoC to be democratic. Could it be more democratic? Could it be less? The fact is these issue are not black and white and not absoloute. Yet you use such a black and white and absoloute version of democracy as a 'weapon' (much as you use a similar black and white simplistic and absolute version of 'rights' as a weapon.)

2a)This might be true in most cases but not in our case.

But you want to live in a 'normal' country. A normal 'country' became a country by stealing land from someone who owned it before through the force of arms. That is 'normal'. Or is normality what you want when it suits and not what you want when it does not?

The time that Greeks fist came to Cyprus 3500 years ago the concept of a "country" did not exist.

The land existed. There were people living on that land before 'greeks' arrived. 'Greeks' stole that land.

The Greeks simply built here their own city kingdoms without stealing the land from anybody.

What a ridiculous notion. The great Hellenic empire of antiquity was built and established without force of arms and without 'stealing land' from anyone? Do you REALLY believe that?

2b) What you said there exactly supports my argument. So now Turkey has the power and therefore they can steal our land. Tomorrow that we will have more power, according to what you said, we would be perfectly justified to come and kill you and take away your property.

Certainly the circle repeats. GC did not have the power in 1960 to force the creation of a cypriot state that did not recognise the rights of two seperate communites. After independance they belived they did have this power and exersied it. Eventualy the balance of power shifted again and Turkey stopped these GC ambitions. Now GC hope for a new shift in the balance of power that will force Turkey out of Cyprus and lead to the resatblishment of a unitary Cyprus that does not recognise a right of the TC community to a degree of equality with GC community. Thus the circle continues and continues. What is consitent is the GC desire to live in a country where the GC will can never be blocked or limited and a TC desire to not live in a country where they have a status of minority under the domination of a GC majority. Changes in the balance of power offer no solution. The only solution is for either GC to accept a degree of equality of the two communites (as a right of those communites) or for TC to accept that they will be a political minority in their own country.

No where have I said that anyone is justifed in killing anyone (though you apparently believe that murder can be justified like the struggle of EOKA for independance/enosis). Quite the opposite. I believe that the taking of human life is wrong. Always and without exception. For me this is one of the few 'black and white' issues in a world of greys. What I said is that all owned land was at one stage or another 'owned' by someone else. That force has always been the primary means of 'owning' land. Nothing more and nothing less.

If you do not respect our human rights now, we will not respect yours later and so on and so forth. This way we will never have peace and the circle of blood will never end.

Exactly. Yet you continue to deny the TC peoples right to determine their own future in their own homeland by your inistance that we accept living as a minority in our own country. GC have never accepted this right. You still deny it today and it remains at the core of the ongoing problems in Cyprus.

Your brother said that we lost a war. Sure we did. But have you won?
Who won are mainly the Americans and the British, and some elites in Turkey.

Well the point of quoting this view of my brothers was not about who are the winners. The point is that you talk about 'normality'. Well in the real world the 'norm' is that when you loose a war you loose land (and lives). Why then do you expect to loose a war and yet not loose land? What version of 'normailty' is that ?

The feeling I get from you Piratis is

Normality when that suits (and exception when not)
Primacy of a simplistic notion of Democracy when that suits (and exception to this when it does not suit)
Primacy of human rights - as long as you get to determine what a communites rights should be in their own country.
Fairness - as long as you decide what is fair.
etc etc

[Piratis]

As I said before: Pick any other EU country and lets aply their constitution here. Do you accept?

Of course not, because what you demand is something outrageous that exists in no other EU country. (in no other country in general actually. Even Switzerland is better from Annan plan)

You mentioned the UK. Ok, lets apply what they have in the UK in Cyprus. No problem. You are the ones who can not accept anything normal. What you want is Cyprus to be partitioned and a puppet of Turkey and the Americans. And this is not normal by my standards, and I don't care if it is by yours.

I never talked about "direct" democracy where every decision is taken directly from the people. What I talk about is what they have in all other democratic countries of the world: a representative democracy where each person has an equal voting power.

The land existed. There were people living on that land before 'greeks' arrived. 'Greeks' stole that land.

Ok, since you know better tell me who was living in Curium, Salamina etc before the Greeks? Apart from Egypt, the Mesopotamia and some other areas the notion of "country" did not exist at that time. Greeks stole nobodies land in Cyprus. They built their cities on land that belonged to nobody.

Exactly. Yet you continue to deny the TC peoples right to determine their own future in their own homeland by your inistance that we accept living as a minority in our own country.

Ok. Determine YOUR future. OUR properties and OUR human rights are not part of anything yours though. And Cyprus is not just yours. Is for all Cypriots. So you do whatever you want with things that belong exclusively to you, we will do whatever we want with the things that belong exclusively to us. What we commonly own though, should be owned equally among all Cypriots. One citizens vote can not count 4.5 times more than another's.