Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Of course not, because what you demand is something outrageous that exists in no other EU country. (in no other country in general actually. Even Switzerland is better from Annan plan)

If what I ask (that the two communites in Cyprus work togeather in a spirit and structure of partnership and equality as communites in their shared homeland) is so outrageous then why has there been such a widespread acceptance of the need for a unique consitiution for Cyprus by everyone except the GC community from 1950s (and before) onwards. If the issue were as simple and black and white as you suggest then why not a 'normal' constituion in 1960? Why has each and every plan put forward by international agencies accepted the need for some degree of autonomy and equality for the two communites? One possibility is that the rest of the world simply hates GC and likes TC and that the rest of the world wants to cheat GC (and help TC steal from them). Or another more plausible explaination would be that everyone except GC like yourself accept that some degree of autonomy and equality of the two communites is necessary right and just.

In 195x the GC community argued to the world (via the UN) that Cyprus should be a 'normal' country where there was a single Cypriot people and that all decisions should be based on straight majority of the 'Cypriot' people. They lost that argument then. From 1963 to 74 they tried to use their 'balance of power' and force to create what they failed to convince the world was fair and just and right. In 74 they suffered loss as a consequence of this appraoch. Now in 2004 you are still insisting that there is only a single Cypriot people and that TC are nothing more than a minority within Cyprus. You still insist that there can be no peace without this acceptance. That any acceptance of a TC right to some form of autonomy and equality within the Cypriot state is unfair, undemocratic and unjust. Why is it then that after 50+ years of making this same argument you have so far failed to convince anyone other than yourselves. If it were really so self evident, so simple, so just and right, so non 'outrageous' then do you not think that you would have managed to win some support in this time? Is it not within the realms of possibility that you are simply wrong? That actualy the 'fairest' solution to a united Cyprus does require some degree of autonomy and equality of the GC and TC communites?

You mentioned the UK. Ok, lets apply what they have in the UK in Cyprus. No problem. You are the ones who can not accept anything normal. What you want is Cyprus to be partitioned and a puppet of Turkey and the Americans. And this is not normal by my standards, and I don't care if it is by yours.

My prefered solution in Cyprus - if I had a magic wand - would be what I sated above "the two communites in Cyprus work togeather in a spirit and structure of partnership and equality as communites in their shared homeland".

I never talked about "direct" democracy where every decision is taken directly from the people. What I talk about is what they have in all other democratic countries of the world: a representative democracy where each person has an equal voting power.

Any system that does not have proportional representation does not give an equal vote to every person. In the UK for example you vote in a local MP. The size of the population in your local area affects then how much your vote counts. Live in a less populous local area and you vote counts more that a person in a more populous area. These kinds of discrepencies exists in all democratic countries and to different degress in each - as well as much more obviously in unions like the EU.

Ok, since you know better tell me who was living in Curium, Salamina etc before the Greeks? Apart from Egypt, the Mesopotamia and some other areas the notion of "country" did not exist at that time. Greeks stole nobodies land in Cyprus. They built their cities on land that belonged to nobody.

The ancient Greek empire (which Cyprus was never a part of to my knowledge) was built like all empires are built. By the use of force and by stealing land from others. The idea that Greeks came to Cyprus and established their city states here only on 'unoccupied land' without using ofrce or stealing land from earlier inhabitants is just ridiculous.

Ok. Determine YOUR future. OUR properties and OUR human rights are not part of anything yours though. And Cyprus is not just yours. Is for all Cypriots. So you do whatever you want with things that belong exclusively to you, we will do whatever we want with the things that belong exclusively to us.

I have stated my personal prefered solution above. However if it is evident that GC community is unwilling and unable to work in partnership in such a partnership state then the next sensible option would have been for seperation and two individual states in Cyprus. However such a solution has never been acceptable to GC. Not in 1950. Not in 1960 and not today. Maybe if such a solution had been acceptable to GC in 1960 then we would not have had the suffering and pain since then that we have had.
So are you saying now that you would trade acceptance and recognition of a TC state alongside a GC one for and equitable settlement on that which was lost by GC in 74? If you are then is there a single GC politician suggesting such an approach? Are you willing to accept the natural consequences of such an agreement? That some GC would not be able to live anywhere in Cyprus but only in their 'agree' section?
Forgive me if I suspect that actualy partition - even on a basis of exact division based on 1960 state of afairs - is no more acceptable to you than TC as a community having some degree of autonomy and equality with the GC community in Cyprus.

What we commonly own though, should be owned equally among all Cypriots. One citizens vote can not count 4.5 times more than another's.

What you mean is that one citizens vote can not count for more than another in _Cyprus_ (because this happens to give your community total control over Cyprus AND the TC community). You are perferctly happy for one EU citizens vote to count vastly more (way more than in Cyprus) than another EU citizens vote. You also (apparently) have no problems with the inequality of one persons vote in any country that does not have direct proportional represention - like the UK and I suspect the RoC and many other 'normal' countries. Again you will have to forgive me if I come away with the impression that absoloute equality of one citizens vote only matters to you when it supports your desire for a single unitary Cypriot state dominated by the GC community and actualy is irrelevant to you in any other senario.

[insan]

What you mean is that one citizens vote can not count for more than another in _Cyprus_ (because this happens to give your community total control over Cyprus AND the TC community).

I second this point of view ... This is the core element of this issue... So in this respect, political equality of two communities should be considered as the political safe-guard of the community which is 1/4 of the other community...

[MicAtCyp]

with the tcs that have a population which is at least one third of the greeks

It seems to me you included in your list the diaspora TCs, you excluded from that the diaspora GCs, you included in that the Turkish settlers etc etc. Of course this way you may claim anything you like as for example that the TCs are not 18% but 33%+. What a logic!!!

illegal greek republic of southern cyprus

According with your "legal" standards of strealing and selling properties that don't belong to you the Republic of Cyprus is illegal and your pseudo state that applies those practices is legal.With your logic the whole world is illegal except your pseudostate. What a square logic indeed!!

And on the other hand Germany that has more than 110 times the population, also has one Commision in the EU Commision

If you don't like it then don't join that distorted and illegal EU organisation, or create your own.

In Belgium, Wallons and Flemish people who have population percentages similar to the Greeks and Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus, live under a federal system very similar to one proposed in the Annan Plan.

Do any of the three people of Belgium had to lose two thirds of their properties? Did any of the three had to bear 99% of the cost invlolved to support the system? Did they offer sea shell rights to another nation? Did they give intervention rights to a hostile nation? Otherwise very similar to the Anan Plan indeed!!! What a square logic!!!

We do not deserve any less from other European Nations that share political equality with other nations that are more in number.

Neither do we. Give us back our stolen properties and you are free to do whatever you like, even become founding members and heads of the Martian Confederation.

Our political equality is not a matter of discussion.

Neither is the equality of our human rights. Whether you accept this or not, is not a matter of discussion, the problem is when will you be able to accept it or lose it.

[MicAtCyp]

Erol,
If we were to analyse everything philosophically like you do, we would end up claiming that the Cyprus problem does not really exist, it is just images of illussion and nightmares in the time-space related dimension that some souls pass through. By the way do you have anything in common with Huxley?

You say that all land was actually stolen land through the ages.Fine let’s return to the ages when that was the rule then.Is this what you are asking? And you see no problem in that?

It is funny that when it suits you you plunge into deep philosophical issues, and when not you surface to ovesimplistic street arguments. So the Greek Cypriots lost a war, they should get over it, ha? With this logic I can also claim that the TCs also lost that war, and all wars after that, and as a result of that loss they will all eventually abandon Cyprus and be substituted by settlers.

[brother]

This arguement points in the direction that the war is not over(even though its only words) and that if we do not start to be more realistic and tolerant all cypriots stand to be stuck in this stalemate position for a long time to come.

[MicAtCyp]

About the matter of land "stolen" and "re-stolen" in primitive ages, I would suggest Erol the following:
Suppose you were living in Cyprus in the year of 700 AD. How much land would you "steal"? And for what? Don't you know that people were simply caltivating as much land as their own two hands could do? And that they were actually living from it? Each and every inhabitant had as much land as he could cultivate with his own two hands. And there was plenty more if someone wanted. The fact is that more often than not, people would starve not because they did not have enough land to cultivate, but because there was no rain, or there were other physical phenomena that destroyed everything.

In my opinion the suppression of people during those ages was not done by stealing their lands.Was done by primarily stealing the products their lands would provide basically through taxation by some oligarchies.Although we must admit their was some degree of fighting and "stealing" of good lands "near the water".

Even when the Ottomans came here they did not steal the peoples properties.Because if they would the people would starve and die, and from whom would they suck their supplies then? What the Ottomans did was to take the lands that the Latins left behind. And the Ottomans did not bring any women with them.... They simply got women from the local population. Beleive it or not the TCs are decendants of male Ottomans + female local. This explains the fact that both the TCs and the GCs have exactly the same percentages regarding genetic diseases like diabetes, thalassemia etc. And these percentages are quite different from those of the mainland Greeks and mainland Turks.

The fact is that even until 1940, the matter of land ownership in Cyprus was not an important issue.Most poor people had hundreds of acres each in their disposal. And many people would sell their lands for peanuts, and use the money for emigrating or trying a better life in industrialised towns. It is a fact that as a group of people both the GCs and the TCs prior to 1974 owned approximately as much land as their percentage of population was.

What happened in 1974 was that the GCs were suddenly deprived a huge percentage of their lands, and if we are to accept this as a natural process, then guess what the next natural event will be. And of course the land today is not as useful for cultivating purposes, as it is for building houses and hotels etc.

[MicAtCyp]

everyone except GC like yourself accept that some degree of autonomy and equality of the two communites is necessary right and just.

Erol, I think we discussed this issue exhaustively in the past, and every GC member in this forum agreed with you on the extend of that degree of "political equality".

I don't think Piratis disagrees with that given the fact that he accepts a federal system in Cyprus.
Piratis though, me and the majority of the GCs disagree how this "degree of equality" was translated in the Anan Plan and I think this is what he is stressing in his posts.

However I asked hundreds of times but never received any reply from any TC member in this forum. I repeat once more:
Are you sure what Denktash and the regime in the North mean by political equality is anything less than an absolute equality on everything that has to do with gain or right to receive, and proportional equality on everything that has to do with loss or obligation to contribute?

Ask for example Tcypriot to tell you what kind of equality he accepts.Ask Rahmi. You can even ask Bananiot.

[Alasya]

What does it matter if we are 18% or 33%? Are Turkish Cypriots rights to autonomy conditional on how numerous we are. Where does that argument leave Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Rhaeto-Romansch speakers and the Breton, and the Basque? And what of the Scots and the Welsh who are much much fewer in number in the UK population than the English. Can you really apply majority rule in a multi-ethnic state? Do you not think that this is a tad dangerous? Have you drawn no lessons from the Yugoslavian Civil War?

Why do I get the feeling that numbers are so important to Greek Cypriots? To certain G/Cs in this forum (no names mentioned), population statistics and rights to autonomy seem to be co-joint. The idea is, if you a majority of the population you have more rights than the minority, and can dominate and control the minority even if they constitute a separate nation living in their own country. Don`t tell the people of Friesland in the Netherlands that they are a "minority" and have no right to demand autonomy. Similarly like the T/Cs they consider themselves a fully fledged nation, and live with the Dutch. In Bosnia, an ethnic fruit cake, no community can govern over the other, thats why its a federation.

I don`t know why are even discussing population, the last census was taken in 1960. We can only estimate how many Turkish Cypriots there are in Cyprus. And in the event of a political settlement, doubtless many more will return from the dispora populations in the UK, Canada, Australia, US and New Zealand. This will alter the cyprus population yet again, so theres no point dwelling on population.

[Piratis]

There is a difference between people that own a specific region, like the Scots, the Kurds or the Basques etc, and people that are spread all over the place in a country.

If you exclusively (or almost exclusively) own a region then you have the right to do whatever you want with it. E.g. you can join a federation with other regions to form a country on terms that you will agree, or you can be independent or whatever.

Turkish Cypriots do not own a region. The only pure (almost) TC places are some villages. If you wanted to declare those villages independent, I would personally agree, no problem. But to claim that you are the 50% owners of Cyprus, when you are the 18%, then no, this is not something that can be acceptable, the same way that the Americans will never accept to give 50% of the power to the Hispanics etc.

Anyways. If you don't want to live with us then fine. Take 18% of Cyprus as your population is, and be independent and do whatever you want. I accept!
Any arguments against this??

[brother]

yes i got an arguement against this.

Cyprus is meant to be a cypriot country but since the motherlands with their persuasive attitudes managed to seperate us into two types of cypriot, one the tc which has a smaller percentage of people and gc with the larger percentage, then they gave us another wisdom that the larger gc population controls everything and the smaller tc population fights to be an equal.

This is all b******s, if we are cypriots then we should accept that who is more or less means the square root of f**K all and as such if we can for one minute stop bickering like children and agree on a few crucial points then we can go forward.

I DO NOT ACCEPT THE TRNC OR THE ROC AS LEGITAMATE GOVERMENTS OF THE CYPRIOT PEOPLE AS IN BOTH OF THEM A BIG PART OF THE POPULATION WAS MISSING.
BOTH REGIMES HAVE GOT US BICKERING OVER NOTHING AND WE ARE MISSING OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO LIVE ON OUR ISLAND AS ONE PEOPLE.

So can we not all agree that if we were to say introduce laws into the ROC as they are internationally known, that ensures the equality of all cypriots and all other safeguards etc.

Can we not agree that every month so many cypriot refugees are allowed to return or sell there lands/properties and if settlers or another cypriot there offered compensation etc. to move from a joint E.U fund etc.

can we not from month to month reduce the millatary from our island.


All simple gestures that would work but 'NO' lets all make it complicated and split hairs so as we make the motherlands or whatever outside influence happy and be slaves to circumstance and never have peace or real freedom in our country.

We all talk about human rights but here we are all fighting and trying knowingly or not to get one over the other, trying to control each other, keeping the stalemate alive.

Well if this is what we have become then we deserve to NEVER be free in our country or to have peace, as we have not learnt to be human beings yet.