Cyprus-Forum.com

[unique_earthling]

i didnt mention your name Andri did i???

[andri_cy]

i didnt mention your name Andri did i???

You didnt mention anyone's name now did you leslie? it is kind of sad to see that when it comes to cats and dogs we can keep going on and on about it on here, even though it serves no purpose whatsoeverand it doesnt amount to more mudslinging, more attention seeking and more supposition but when it comes to innocent women and children being killed wether it be justified or not then it is a different ball game and people cant talk about it they just need to get on a plane and do something about it. A little bit double standard going on here dont you think?

[unique_earthling]

no because all i hear is people saying how bad it is, the same as i feel about the animal situation but at least i am doing something. At least i couldnt sit by my pc and just go awww isnt it aweful without trying to make some difference. and anyway it was Lysi i was referring too, if you have not the sense to see that then you were not reading her posts..

[Damsi]

Miltiades
I agree with almost everything you said in your last post except this "The kids of Lebanon will grow up and join the forces of hate , the Israeli kids determined to kill for their survival."

You comment is so biased it beggars belief. Do you think only Muslims are capable of hate and the Israelis not? Check these quotes out: I have sourced them from a news data base as some of them go back years. These things were actually said and you wonder why Muslims hate Israel. I know Muslims say bad stuff too about Israel but please don't assume Israel is only a victim and is not capable of bad things, some of these quotes come from beofre there was a "Palestinian problem".

'If I knew that it was possible to save all the (Jewish) children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.'

David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.'

-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971


'[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.'

Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


'(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.'

- Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers, New York Times April 1, 1988

(Flora Lewis, trying to be helpful, suggests a better translation: " `Locusts' would have been more appropriate, “relentless in their swarms.")


'We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'

-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them.'

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.


[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin, explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)


"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian

[miltiades]

Damsi , you are wrong mate. Just read some of my recent posts and you will see that I talk of the hatred between these very religious people the Jews and the Arabs. Of course the Jews hate the Arabs and visa verse , did you you think I said the Israelites love the Arabs ?? Why should they ?

[Damsi]

No you assumed Lebanese childen would grow up "to hate" and that Israeli children would grow up "fighting for their survival".
That is a huge distinction. I said i agreed with the rest of your post.
Of course you realise the Israelis hate Arabs. They have good reason but what pro-Israel punters do not acknowledge is that Arabs also have good reason to hate Israel.
Israel is not the victim it is portrayed as.
Everyone thinks this conflict started on July 12, just out of the blue, just like that.
These particular facts have gone down the "memory hole"

Before the July 12 capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah. A major incident fueling the latest cycle of violence was a May 26, 2006 car bombing in Sidon, Lebanon, that killed a senior official of Islamic Jihad, a Palestinian group allied with Hezbollah. Lebanon later arrested a suspect, Mahmoud Rafeh, whom Lebanese authorities claimed had confessed to carrying out the assassination on behalf of Mossad (London Times, 6/17/06).

Israel denied involvement with the bombing, but even some Israelis are skeptical. "If it turns out this operation was effectively carried out by Mossad or another Israeli secret service," wrote Yediot Aharonot, Israel’s top-selling daily (6/16/06; cited in AFP, 6/16/06), "an outsider from the intelligence world should be appointed to know whether it was worth it and whether it lays groups open to risk."

In Lebanon, Israel's culpability was taken as a given. "The Israelis, in hitting Islamic Jihad, knew they would get Hezbollah involved too," Amal Saad-Ghorayeb, a professor at Beirut’s Lebanese American University, told the New York Times (5/29/06). "The Israelis had to be aware that if they assassinated this guy they would get a response."

And, indeed, on May 28, Lebanese militants in Hezbollah-controlled territory fired Katyusha rockets at a military vehicle and a military base inside Israel. Israel responded with airstrikes against Palestinian camps deep inside Lebanon, which in turn were met by Hezbollah rocket and mortar attacks on more Israeli military bases, which prompted further Israeli airstrikes and "a steady artillery barrage at suspected Hezbollah positions" (New York Times, 5/29/06).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The portrayal of Israel as the innocent victim in the Gaza conflict is hard to square with the death toll in the months leading up to the current crisis; between September 2005 and June 2006, 144 Palestinians in Gaza were killed by Israeli forces, according to a list compiled by the Israeli human rights group B'tselem; 29 of those killed were children. During the same period, no Israelis were killed as a result of violence from Gaza.

In a July 21 CounterPunch column, Alexander Cockburn highlighted some of the violent incidents that have dropped out of the media’s collective memory:

Let's go on a brief excursion into pre-history. I’m talking about June 20, 2006, when Israeli aircraft fired at least one missile at a car in an attempted extrajudicial assassination attempt on a road between Jabalya and Gaza City. The missile missed the car. Instead it killed three Palestinian children and wounded 15.

Back we go again to June 13, 2006. Israeli aircraft fired missiles at a van in another attempted extrajudicial assassination. The successive barrages killed nine innocent Palestinians.

Now we're really in the dark ages, reaching far, far back to June 9, 2006, when Israel shelled a beach in Beit Lahiya killing eight civilians and injuring 32.

That's just a brief trip down Memory Lane, and we trip over the bodies of twenty dead and forty-seven wounded, all of them Palestinians, most of them women and children.

On June 24, the day before Hamas' cross-border raid, Israel made an incursion of its own, capturing two Palestinians that it said were members of Hamas (something Hamas denied—L.A. Times, 6/25/06). This incident received far less coverage in U.S. media than the subsequent seizure of the Israeli soldier; the few papers that covered it mostly dismissed it in a one-paragraph brief (e.g., Chicago Tribune, 6/25/06), while the Israeli taken prisoner got front-page headlines all over the world. It's likely that most Gazans don’t share U.S. news outlets' apparent sense that captured Israelis are far more interesting or important than captured Palestinians.

All this and yet only Israel is allowed to "defend itself".

[miltiades]

Damsi you appear to be a very knowledgeable individual , perhaps you may like to enlighten me as to the ulterior motives of all these atrocities perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinians , Hamas ,Hezbollah , Gods favourite Sons , Gods Warriors , Gods Servants ,The righteous ones , the Divine Martyrs , the F..ng suicide killers etc , etc
Why on earth should Israel attack these innocent bastards I will never know. Could it be that they send brainwashed little fanatics strapped with explosives and promises of sexual orgies , to kill as many Israelites as possible.

[miltiades]

So soon after my last post , may I also ask if razor blades are prohibited in Middle Eastern countries , almost every one has a beard or a mustache .Is it a cultural or religious sign , or are they members of the Holy bearded revolutionary brigade.

[Damsi]

Miltiades
You are an intelligent person. If you had read the quotes above you might find a reason that the Arabs hate Israel.

Let me repeat one of them:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

That is not to condone the loss of innocent lives on the Israeli side. As far as I'm concerned neither side is totally without blame but I get very tired of hearing that ONLY the Arabs are at fault. That was my point.

You are in the UK, Do you read The Times?
This is from 2004

"Last year, at the Nablus checkpoint, a middle-aged Palestinian man was made to strip, get down on all fours and bark like a dog before he could enter his city. Women in labour routinely wait at checkpoints until some give birth there and see their babies die.

Those that survive live a blighted childhood. Since September 2000, Israel has killed more than 660 Palestinian children and wounded 9,000 — such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died. Thousands of children are traumatised by the daily horrors they witness. For a Palestinian child, life under Israeli occupation means turning 15 and seeing the army come to arrest you if you are male, or seeing your friends bleed to death because no ambulance is allowed to rescue them.

It is difficult to convey the scale and effect of Israel’s abuses of Palestinian lives through statistics alone. But these are horrifying enough: since 2000, nearly 4,000 Palestinians killed, and 30,000 injured; 400 were assassinated; and 25,000 homes were demolished. In addition, hundreds of acres of farmland were destroyed. (And that was two years ago)

The truth is that the West, which created Israel, cannot bear to see what it has done. In trying to solve the problem of Jewish persecution in Europe, which culminated in the Holocaust, Western powers helped to establish the Jewish state as a refuge for the Jews - and their own consciences."

[miltiades]

Israel is guilty of many crimes against the Palestinians and trying to understand the ulterior motives behind such unspeakable acts of barbarity is extremely infuriating when the perpetrators are allies of the Western world.
I try to read their reasoning as to why such inhumane acts are committed by a nation that itself suffered the results of the holocaust. This is what time and time is used as the explanatory argument.
The Palestinians have never recognised the right of Israel to exist.Their goal is the total destruction of the state of Israel.
Numerous suicide attacks on civilian targets killing and maiming hundreds of Israelis.Such horrific attacks are seen by the Palestians as Martyrdom .
A constant state of alert is necessary for their survival.
My personal solution would be this.
Israel pulls back to its pre 67 borders over a period of pre agreed time scale. The Palestinians recognise Israel and declare the end of all violent acts against the state of Israel.
Israel sets free all Palestinian prisoners and helps to reconstruct the Palestinian state.

The end of hostilities unfortunately will never come .The hatred that exists between the Jews and the Arabs will carry on for the foreseeable future.
The following statement by Ben Gurion is a well known one and has been heavily criticised by successive American administrations as well as by Israel.
"""We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, . """