Cyprus-Forum.com

[alexISS]

Obviously you didn’t get it, so get it now: I don’t want to elaborate on this issue.

I'm not waiting for you to elaborate, I already told you that I've heard this kind of talk ("we are paying because of you") before

The topic here is Enosis. So if you want to contribute you could perhaps answer kikapu’s query.

Would you as a mainland Greek want Enosis, have that rivive in some GC brains in the future? (after a solution i.e)

If a partition was inevitable then yes, I would want the Greek Cypriot part to join Greece, but in no other case

[Kifeas]

As for the GDP
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa ... os/gr.html
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa ... os/cy.html

the CIA World Factbook gives Greece GDP=$22,200 and Cyprus GDP=$21,500.

Alexis, the above data is wrong. You should better check and trust EU sources than US ones.
The mistake the above source makes is to take the RoC (GC population) GDP (in purchasing power parity) and then divide it by the total population (i.e. including the TCs in the north,) without even adding the occupied area's "GDP" on to the RoC (south) GDP. The above mistaken method results in shifting down the per capita GDP (in PPP) by at least 15%.

What you should do is to recalculate the 16.75 billion dollars of RoC GDP by 670 thousands people (GC population in the south,) as it is the case followed with Greece, instead of the 784 thousands that is the total population (including the TCs in the north.) The result will be around 25,000 dollars.

[alexISS]

The mistake the above source makes is to take the RoC (GC population) GDP (in purchasing power parity) and then divide it by the total population (i.e. including the TCs in the north,) without even adding the occupied area's "GDP" on to the RoC (south) GDP.

Republic of Cyprus: $21,500 (2005 est.); north Cyprus: $7,135 (2004 est.)

I think their calculations are correct, since they keep separate records for the free RoC and the occupied North

from a european source:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/po ... -EN-BP.PDF
It is stated that both Greece's and Cyprus's GDP is 82% of the EU average

[Kifeas]

The mistake the above source makes is to take the RoC (GC population) GDP (in purchasing power parity) and then divide it by the total population (i.e. including the TCs in the north,) without even adding the occupied area's "GDP" on to the RoC (south) GDP.

Republic of Cyprus: $21,500 (2005 est.); north Cyprus: $7,135 (2004 est.)

I think their calculations are correct, since they keep separate records for the free RoC and the occupied North

from a european source:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/po ... -EN-BP.PDF
It is stated that both Greece's and Cyprus's GDP is 82% of the EU average

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal ... a/daa10000

Cyprus is a bit ahead - 19,500 euros vs. 19,200 euros in 2005 (it used to so during the past decade,) but Greece is closing the gap and by year 2007 it is estimated that it will surpass Cyprus a bit. (21,300 vs. 21,500)

The CIA world fact book is definitely wrong! For year 2005 it divides the 16.78 billion dollars that gives as the GDP (PPP) of the RoC (south) by the 780,000 thousands of population that is sum of 670,000 plus 110,000 of estimated TC population in the north and roughly gets 21,500 dollars, or approximately equal to 17,000 euros, while the Eurostat table above gives for the same year 19,500 euros (24,700 dollars) as the per capita GDP of Cyprus.

I hope this time you can see the mistake because I do not intent to go over it again.

[Pyrpolizer]

Thanks Natty for providing some links for Cypezokyli.

Cypezokyli,

when reading some surprising theories, you should also care to investigate the matter. Yeah I know of all these theories that the priests did not support the Greek revolution, they were against education, they were glad to receive the Ottomans, and all that stuff. They contain only a tiny part of the truth deliberately used for Turkish propaganda: To shadow the barbarocity of the Ottomans and present their era as benevolent …

The millet system did provide the opportunity for someone to become rich- not necessarily a priest- but on the other hand that someone was also loaded with responsibilities. And the usual price to pay was his head. A typical example in Cyprus was Hatzigeorgakis Kornesios. For the sociological aspect of this situation and how the priests were loaded full responsibility read "Christ Recrucified" by Kazantzakis.

You also seem to confuse some things. The church (as an anonymous institution that belonging to all christians), is a totally different issue than the priest himself becoming rich. The priest himself was NOT getting any richer under the Ottomans, he was as poor as the rest of the villagers. The elite of the church (bishops etc) was drawing its power directly from the followers not from the amounts of donated lands. The church in reality was the protector of the christians both physically and materially that’s why the christians used to give their properties to church- to escape losing them completely. Contrary to what you’ve read the target of the church was to protect and guide the Christans. The Church finally ended up with huge pieces of land, not because that was their target, but because of the circumstances. The peasants might have been illiterate but they were not fools (in case the target of the church was to take their lands i.e)

I also consider your claim that the Church was against education totally absurd.The Heptanise school was the first Greek University (Kapodistreion?) and pre-existed the 1821 revolution as the Heptanise was never under Ottoman rule (they were under the Italians) half the scholars there were priests and the rest very close to church. Dionysios Solomos comes from there… The first capital of Greece after 1821 was there…

Do you know that until today when someone addresses a priest he calls him "teacher"? (daskale). Do you think it’s coincidential?. The first teachers were in fact the priests not only for us, but also for the Turks. Go to any TC school you like. The TC schoolkids call their teacher "Hoja". Not Sir, not "teacher"… Hoja !!!

in Cyprus the primary education (just read-write-basic maths-and prayers) during the Ottomans was also provided by the priests as they were the only ones who could read & write, whereas anyone who wanted higher education whould go to Constantinople.

As for the matter of injustice under the Ottomans, it would really be nice if there were no remnants today. Alas go to Rizokarpaso and see for yourself the injustice agains the Rums even today. There is not a single case an enclaved Rum (GC) found justice against a settler (they are all settlers there) by applying to the so called authorities.Tens of roberies against our elderly, harrasments occur on a daily basis, every couple of years we have the murdering of a lonely elder just to steal his/her few pounds. Who was ever arrested? Nobody!Who was ever charged? Nobody! Just recently one of the few GCs living there got a licence to build a new modern restaurant.He realised the Gc visitors would support him. After spending his lifetime savings, the local Turk settler muhtar came by saying "hmm very good very nice but you know, I cancel your licence"! Just like that…. Now multiply these injustices by 100 to get the feeling of what was happening under the Ottomans.

As for the number of priests excecuted I don’t think I can help you, as I don’t think there were any statistics. You have to do a lot of reading to get some insight. If you chose biased sources then reading contradictory ones should enable you to filter out the truth.

NB. Perhaps you can get an insight of what’s expecting those "Rums" that would return under TC authority in a BBF system. I personally have no doubt they will need to tear their asses just to get what goes without saying anywhere else in the world, and what we will be providing the TCs living in our side without them even asking. Just pray I am wrong.

[cypezokyli]

wow!!!!
a real answer from purpolizer !!! and a long one!

Thanks Natty for providing some links for Cypezokyli.

you are questioning my sources , when if you read them they are not only quite detailed, but also provide their sources as well.
and you are consider natty source - the church of cyprus website , as reliable.
would it surprise you if it told you , that if you read kissingers memoirs he considers himself as completely innocent!!

For the sociological aspect of this situation and how the priests were loaded full responsibility read "Christ Recrucified" by Kazantzakis.

1. i read that
2. thats a novel written way later - its not a historical document
3. i never questioned that the priests had responsibilities. thats what i wrote in the first post you did not like. "they had privilages"...."the british could never understood why we let the priests rule us".
4. on the matter church - education relations , is extremely absurd to bring kazantzakis as an example!!!!
5. correct me if i am wrong (i dont have the book in front of me) but didnt the local priest in the novel (among other things) tried to convince the local pasha , to force the "newcomers" away ? i mean "o hristos xanastavronete" proves exactly what i am saying. the local priest in order not to loose his status he cooperated with the ottomans

Contrary to what you’ve read the target of the church was to protect and guide the Christans. The Church finally ended up with huge pieces of land, not because that was their target, but because of the circumstances.

bc, the ottomans gave them that power
may i ask, if the phenomenon of donating land continued during the british empire ?

I also consider your claim that the Church was against education totally absurd.The Heptanise school was the first Greek University (Kapodistreion?) and pre-existed the 1821 revolution as the Heptanise was never under Ottoman rule (they were under the Italians) half the scholars there were priests and the rest very close to church.

the main part of my quotes , reffered to the myth of the kryfo sholio. the ottomans never prevented schools being build. that myth was intentionally created in order to make the greeks believe that the church was the "protector of the nation" - which is a big bull.

most of the schools inside the ottoman empire where build from greek traders and intellectuals and not from the church.
examples and counterexamples we will find a lot (i.e. good priests bad priests) . important is what the head of the church did. and as a rule, the greek education was not undertaken by the church.

lets put it that way. the role of the church (as we learned it in school) is way overexagurated. and thats my main point. some priests here and there played ofcource a positive role , but the education of the greeks started especially after, the enlightment in europe , and was brought to greece - not by priests

As for the number of priests excecuted I don’t think I can help you, as I don’t think there were any statistics. You have to do a lot of reading to get some insight. If you chose biased sources then reading contradictory ones should enable you to filter out the truth.

thats why i asked. you seemed to be sure that they were killing one after the other

..........
as for the enclaved in cyprus.
i consider the way they have been treated , absolutely not-justifiable. i opened a thread in this forum once , and a number of tcs admitted that they are not treated properly. i dont question robberries ad harrasments especially in the past , but this :

every couple of years we have the murdering of a lonely elder just to steal his/her few pounds. Who was ever arrested? Nobody!Who was ever charged?

could you provide me with some info ?


............

NB. Perhaps you can get an insight of what’s expecting those "Rums" that would return under TC authority in a BBF system. I personally have no doubt they will need to tear their asses just to get what goes without saying anywhere else in the world, and what we will be providing the TCs living in our side without them even asking. Just pray I am wrong.

if thats the opinion you have about tcs , then i dont see how you can live with them in any solution ! and the only solution that will guarantee that the tcs will not do , what you think they will do - is partition... but that wont give you your land back, will it ?

[Bananiot]

Bringing Kazantzakis into this is very dangerous indeed. It depends on the phase the great novelist was going through while writing. Anyway, its been a while since reading this particular one but if I remember correctly he makes a distinct division between high priests (whom he detested enormously) and ordinary, village priests.

[Pyrpolizer]

wow!!!!
…. and a long one!

Hey I almost fell asleep ...



With the next one too!

[Pyrpolizer]

so whatever we learn at school is a lie. the church was in favor of the turks. the patriarch, before the revolution issued a "fatherly letter" , where he said , that the greek slavery was a gift from god, and we should be happy and grateful to god, who gave us such a good conqueror, and we should start working on the saviour of our soul and the other world and not for this one.

Yeah, right…what other option did he have, other than writting what he was told? Loose his head?
If that was the general attitute among the priests then the so called lies concerning the church would have been exposed at the time they were spread. Not so many centuries later.

2. there was no problem in having greek schools in the ottoman empire.

Not entirely true.
First there were no "schools". Jeez we are talking about the 13th century here…
During the first 3 centruries the Ottomans had no problem letting people learn how to read & write.This was done by priests.

At some stage around 18th century the Ottomans realised the new ideas coming from Europe Russia etc were very dangerous so they started looking at education with suspicion.It didn’t need anything more than a suspicion for the local pasha to start taking heads off… Now it’s upto you to think of what outlet those who already started some learning had. I wouldn’t strike out Kryfo sholio myself …

Can I ask a question, I know in some parts of Greece, some children were taught, at night, in a secret school run by priests, the greek language, etc....Did this also happen in CY?

No Natty absolutely no evidence of that in Cyprus. We only know the priests were teaching basic read & write, arithmetic, and prayers. And even that not so widely, they were just "educating" a little more than what needed to have a new generation of priests.The extremely very few and rich Rums who could afford higher education were going to Constantinople.

[Pyrpolizer]

Bringing Kazantzakis into this is very dangerous indeed. It depends on the phase the great novelist was going through while writing. Anyway, its been a while since reading this particular one but if I remember correctly he makes a distinct division between high priests (whom he detested enormously) and ordinary, village priests.

I was referring to the part that the priest was pressed by the villagers to calm down the pasha by proposing him his daughter.A blasphemy for a christian you know. However the Pasha was gay, he finally brought a turkish boy from Smyrni…