Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

the church didnot support the greek revolution , and had absolutely no reason to want the system to change. they were the ones most benefiting from the ottoman empire.

Ate re! They were slaughtering one after the other and you tell me they had no reason. FYI they set them personally responsible for everything, and they were the first to pay with their lives for any of the mistakes of the villagers. Even for the fact that the local pasha lost his hanumaki and couln’t find another one so sweat and so tender….

i am not sure which part you are dissatisfied with.
the fact that the greek (and cypriot) church was against the greek revolution (and education of the greeks )

or the fact that during the ottoman empire, they were the class between greeks (or cypriots) that benefited the most, from the millet system ?

ofcource, the ottomans killed a number of them. let me remind you that the ottoman empire , was precisely that: an empire , and too often it acted like one. unless you believe that there were "peacefull empires.

if you have any facts as to how many priests were executed (and if possible in comparison to the execution of the "villagers" ) i would be really interested.

i do hope you can back your claim of :

They were slaughtering one after the other

they were the first to pay with their lives for any of the mistakes of the villagers

Even for the fact that the local pasha lost his hanumaki and couln’t find another one so sweat and so tender

with some facts

[Natty]

"the church didnot support the greek revolution , and had absolutely no reason to want the system to change. they were the ones most benefiting from the ottoman empire. after the british came (who could never understand why the priests are rulling us) they took a number of their privilages away. it was only natural , as one of the leading elite groups in the gc society that they would turn against them."

Hey I don't think I agree with you on that one.....

"Bishop Germanos made the proclamation of the revolution on March 25, 1821 in St. George's Square in Patras. It was no coincidence that the day was also the Feast of the Annunciation. for, as Peter Paroulakis writes, "most significant in the preservation of the Greek spirit was the dedicated work of the Greek Orthodox Church...Throughout Greece in the liturgy and sermons of the churches, and in countless secret schools conducted at night...the local priests of the Greek Orthodox Church taught their faith and spoke the Greek language.."

I found the above quote on a website reviewing the book "The Greek war of Independance" by Peter Paroulakis.


"On March 25 (now Greek Independence Day) 1821, the Orthodox Bishop Germanos of Patras proclaimed a national uprising. Simultaneous risings were planned across Greece, including in Macedonia, Crete, and Cyprus. With the initial advantage of surprise, and aided by Ottoman inefficiency, the Greeks succeeded in capturing the Peloponnese and some other areas."

The above quote I got from Wikopedia.

The Orthodox priests were indeed punished severly, like in the war of Greek independance, some priests were killed as a way of example to the GC's for rebelling, etc

"During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821."

"The bishops, especially the Archbishops, were rendered responsible for any problem, failure, disturbance or suspected movement against the regime. During the Turkish rule, a great number of Archbishops were exiled, forced to i resign and in some cases died from maltreatment. In 1821, at the beginning of the Greek War of Independence, all four bishops, including Archbishop Kyprianos, were executed even though there was not any revolutionary activity in Cyprus"

The above quotes I found on the internet...(doesn't have specific name page) www.churchofcyprus.org.cy/docs/greek_orthodoxbook.doc and www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html.

Although the Greek Orthodox church was set up again during the Ottoman Empire...

"In 1570/1 Cyprus was conquered by the Ottoman Turks. It was the first time that Cyprus fell into non Christian hands after sixteen centuries of Christianity. The Latin Church was almost completely extinguished. The new masters allowed only the existence of the Greek Orthodox Church. Furthermore, the Turks allowed the reorganization of the local church. They also granted certain rights to orthodox Christians, such as the one to buy back many of their churches, church land and monasteries. The orthodox people were eventually permitted to reconstitute their Church in four dioceses: The Holy Archbishopric (Nicosia), and the metropolis of Paphos, Kition (Larnaca) - Limassol and Kerynia.
The Orthodox Church and people had suffered a lot under the Turks, despite the above granted 'privileges'. The forced recruiting of Christian boys, the forced islamization of people, the massacres, the heavy taxes, the lack of infrastructure, the high-handed acts of the local governors and other officials, the lack of justice, the drastic reduction of the population and many other negative factors, caused numerous problems in the Island.
Under the above mentioned circumstances, the Orthodox Church tried to preserve the Christian and Hellenic identity of its flock. Most of the bishops and the Archbishops of the Island contradicted the local authorities....... (the Patriarchate of Constantinople) assisted the local church many times and in many ways. The Ecumenical Patriarchate, by means of its ecclesiastic authority and political connections It is worth mentioning that during that period the spiritual head of all orthodox people in the capital of the Ottoman Empire, facilitated the numerous delegations of the local church to the Porte, promoted the interests of the Island, safeguarded canonical order and church peace in the Island anytime there were internal problems and protected the self governing status of the Church of Cyprus. Thus, the relations between the local church and the Ecumenical Patriarchate were strengthened during Turkish rule, while this was not the case during the Latin rule, when the Orthodox Church of Cyprus was isolated from the rest of orthodoxy....During the Ottoman occupation of Cyprus, the only constitution that survived was the local church, in the persons of their bishops. The bishops and especially the Archbishops were the only shelter and protection for the orthodox people. All complains of people, sometimes of Turkish people too, on political and administrative matters were referred to the orthodox prelates. The archbishops, mainly from the 17th century onwards, were recognized by the Sublime Porte not only as the religious but also the political leaders (ethnarchs) of the occupied orthodox community."

Again I got the above quote from the www.churchofcyprus.org.cy page.

Peace!

[Natty]

Hey Cypezokli, the Greek Cypriot church actually played a huge part in maintaining the Greek customs, language etc, on the Island, they also taught these customs etc, to the GC and mainland Greek population....Have you ever heard of the song, 'fenkaraki mou lampro'?

[Natty]

Sorry, I posted a reply twice and when I tried to delete it, I was told I had to right something! (Me and computers just don't mix sometimes! )

[Natty]

I read this about enosis which I thought was quite interesting,

"The official position of the Republic of Cyprus today is that enosis is neither feasible nor desirable. None the less, the Greek heritage of the Island is undeniable. And it is important to realize that, historically, enosis was not the romantic and irrational idea it has so often been made out to be. As a national aspiration, however simplistic, it conformed perfectly well with the emergence of modern Greece and with the desire of the Greek Cypriots, who were a small force in themselves, to have an ally in an attempt to escape from the British Empire..."

Peace!

Natty, as a courtesy to your readers, please try to always provide the source and the link of things you are posting, and are not your own words. Normally this is also a strict requirement when posting in forums or writing in journals, books, newspapers, etc.

Sorry Kifeas, I usually do, I must have forgotten that time.. I believe I found the quote in the book "Hostage to History".

peace!

[Natty]

Can I ask a question, I know in some parts of Greece, some children were taught, at night, in a secret school run by priests, the greek language, etc....Did this also happen in CY?

Peace!:)

[Bananiot]

Natty, there were no secret schools and the church had nothing to do with the uprising which certainly did not start with Paleon Parton Germanos, not even on March 25. These are all lies they have been feeding us in order to maintain the influence of church in the society. You will find many things on the internet buy only unbiased, serious and reliable historians will tell you the truth unless if course we want to believe only what it suits us under the circumstances.

[cypezokyli]

Hey Cypezokli, the Greek Cypriot church actually played a huge part in maintaining the Greek customs, language etc, on the Island, they also taught these customs etc, to the GC and mainland Greek population....Have you ever heard of the song, 'fenkaraki mou lampro'?

hi natty.

i hope you understand why your above sources are not reliable. you are quoting the church , on the history of the church for christ sake !!!!

i am sorry to dissapoint you (i was also very dissapointed) but the kryfo sholio never existed. it is a construction. we have absolutely no historical sources on those secret schools.
on the other hand we have sources that can prove that :
1. the church didnot want the greeks to get educated
2. there was no problem in having greek schools in the ottoman empire.

dont trust your school books. trust me on this one.

this link, is in english, and shows where the myth of kryfo sholio originates from. it was created almost 50 years after the end of the greek revolution

http://19thc-artworldwide.org/autumn_02 ... /dano.html

this one is in greek :


http://www.ndimou.gr/articledisplay.asp ... &cat_id=39

read them both. they are very educational

let me quote the core for you and attempt a free translation

Ένας ακόμα τεράστιος μύθος, είναι η εκκλησία ως στοιχείο της εθνικής μας ταυτότητας.Ότι δηλαδή η εκκλησία ήταν πάντα βοηθός στον έλληνα, έκανε το κρυφό σχολειό, κράτησε την εθνική συνείδηση τον καιρό της τουρκοκρατίας, και μετά αγωνίστηκε για την ελευθερία και την επανάσταση. Στο σχολείο μαθαίνουμε ότι στις 25 Μαρτίου, ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός, σήκωσε το λάβαρο της επαναστάσεως στην Αγία Λαύρα. Έχω να σας πω ότι ούτε μία λέξη από αυτή τη φράση, δεν είναι αλήθεια. Η επανάσταση δεν έγινε στις 25 αλλά στις 22, δεν άρχισε στην Αγία Λαύρα, όπου δεν υπήρχε ψυχή, αλλά στη Μάνη με τους Μαυρομιχαλαίους, ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός, ήταν εναντίον της επαναστάσεως, και το λάβαρο δεν υπήρχε. Κατασκευάστηκε πολλά χρόνια μετά, αυτό που έσειε ο Χριστόδουλος στην πλατεία Συντάγματος.

Όλο αυτό λοιπόν που γίνεται διδαχή στα σχολεία, είναι ένα ψέμα. Η εκκλησία ήταν υπέρ των Τούρκων, ο Πατριάρχης Γρηγόριος ο Ε΄ πριν από την επανάσταση, είχε βγάλει μια «Εγκύκλιο Πατερική», όπου λέει ότι η δουλεία των ελλήνων στους τούρκους, είναι δώρο Θεού, και πρέπει να είμαστε ευτυχείς και ευγνώμονες στο Θεό, που μας έδωσε ένα τόσο καλό δυνάστη, να φροντίζουμε δε, για τη σωτηρία της ψυχής μας και τον άλλο κόσμο, και όχι τον υπάρχοντα. Ο δε μέγας εχθρός των ελλήνων, δεν είναι ο τούρκος, αλλά οι ξενόφερτες ιδέες, από τη δύση, περί δήθεν ελευθερίας και δημοκρατίας.

Another great myth is the church as part of ou identity. that the church was always supporting the greek, that it kept the greek identity, that it did the kryfo sholio, and then it faught for the freedom and the revolution. at school we learn that on 25th of march paleon patron germanos , lifted the "flag" of the revolution at ayia lavra. nothing it ma bigger lie than the above : the revolution started on the 22 , it didnot start at ayia lavra bc there was not a single soul there , but in mani, the mavromihalaioi started it , and the "flag" was constructed years later , and that is what the archibishop of greece was using to convince the greeks in demonstrations in athens.
so whatever we learn at school is a lie. the church was in favor of the turks. the patriarch, before the revolution issued a "fatherly letter" , where he said , that the greek slavery was a gift from god, and we should be happy and grateful to god, who gave us such a good conqueror, and we should start working on the saviour of our soul and the other world and not for this one. the biggest enemy for the greeks, is not the turk, but the western ideas, of suppossed freedom and demoracy.

read more down the text and you will find out that the church excommunicated rigas feraios (remember him ? )
moreover people who attempted to teach neuton, copernicus, physics and mathimatics, ended up in prison from the church.

they even excommunicates ypsilanti , one of hte leaders of the revolution!

this one is also in greek. i will not translate the following. its more or less the same :

http://nikosdimou.blogspot.com/2006/03/ ... st_24.html

Το γεγονός ότι μπόρεσε να επανασυγκροτηθεί, εκείνη ακριβώς την εποχή και με την έγκριση των οθωμανικών αρχών, τυπογραφείο υπό τον άμεσο έλεγχο του Πατριαρχείου ήταν ενδεικτικό της πιεστικής ανάγκης πού ένιωθαν τόσο ή Εκκλησία όσο και ή Πύλη να καταπολεμήσουν τα ρεύματα των νέων Ιδεών, πού διαδίδονταν μέσω των εκδόσεων των τυπογραφείων της διασποράς και ιδιαίτερα εκείνων της Βενετίας και της Βιέννης. Ή «Διδασκαλία Πατρική» προειδοποιούσε αυστηρά για «τας νεοφανείς ελπίδας της Ελευθερίας», τις οποίες ο συγγραφέας θεωρούσε ως «νεοφανή και έντεχνον παγίδα», το τελευταίο τέχνασμα το όποιο «έμεθοδεύθη» «ο πρώτος αποστάτης διάβολος» για να παραπλανήσει τους ευσεβείς. Ως αντίδοτο στην επώδυνη φωνή της ελευθερίας, ο συγγραφέας συμβούλευε υποταγή στην «ισχυράν βασιλείαν των Οθωμανών», ή οποία ήταν το δώρο του θεού προς τους ορθόδοξους χριστιανούς, σταλμένο για να τους προστατεύει από τις αιρέσεις. Σύμφωνα με τον συγγραφέα, ή Οθωμανική αυτοκρατορία είχε δημιουργηθεί από τον θεό εκ του μηδενός, σε μια εποχή πού ή χριστιανική ρωμαϊκή αυτοκρατορία άρχισε να «χωλαίνει εις τα της ορθοδόξου πίστεως φρονήματα», με σκοπό να «είναι εις μεν τους Δυτικούς ωσάν ένας χαλινός, εις δε τους Ανατολικούς ημάς πρόξενος σωτηρίας».

and it goes on

Το «νυν θρυλλούμενον σύστημα της ελευθερίας», πού είχε εμφανισθεί στις χώρες της Δύσης εκείνη την εποχή, αντέβαινε προς «τα ρητά της θείας Γραφής και των Αγίων Αποστόλων, οπού μας προστάζουν να υποτασσόμεθα εις τας υπερέχουσας αρχάς». Δεν αντιπροσώπευε παρά αναρχία και «ακαταστασία», οπού «το καθ' αυτό σκοπούμενον ταύτης της ελευθερίας μία μισητή ολιγαρχία και τυραννία, ως εκ της πείρας φαίνεται»

i expect you comments after you read the above websites.

i know that i was very dissapointed.

[alexISS]

Alexis, what “Pyrpoliser” meant in his undoubtedly usually redundant comments is that Cyprus is indeed a bit ahead in terms of per capita GDP, and this is not some kind of a secret. Our pleasure is to see the economy of Greece continuously advancing and I can assure you we will not be displeased at all even if it surpasses that of Cyprus one day. You must also be aware that at a time a lot of Greek investment capital leaves the boarders of Greece and moves into neighboring states, a lot of Cypriot investment capital moves into Greece, especially in areas of tourism development. The balance of investment capital flows between our two countries is overwhelmingly in favor of Greece.

We indeed owe a lot to Greece, mainly in the areas of moral, political and diplomatic support in relation to the Cyprus problem, throughout all the years since 1974, and also for the accession of Cyprus into the EU, but in terms of economic development you cannot really say that it is all due to Greece. The balance of trade (imports/exports) was always in favor of Greece, as well as the balance of tourist visits. On the average and for the last 15 years, only about 100,000 holiday arrivals come to Cyprus from Greece on a yearly basis, versus about some 300,000 the other way around, even though the population of Greece is 20 times more than that of Cyprus. Even the economic burden of Greek military stationing in Cyprus of some 1,500 troops and officers is largely covered by the RoC.

Indeed nearly 50% of Greek Cypriot students have been traditionally studying in Greek universities without tuition fees, but this means that those people also transfer money from Cyprus into the Greek economy because they have to cover all their living expenses, something which in a way counterbalances the cost that the Greek public encounters as a result of providing free education. Of course now we have our own state university as well, and we are in the pleasant position to also offer similar scholarships to Greek students, always on the same per university proportional basis.

Greece indeed provided to Cyprus some tens of millions of dollars of annual very valuable direct financial aid during the early years after 1974. I am not sure for how many years it lasted, perhaps until mid-1980’s, but I have a hope and a strong feeling that due to the all the factors I mentioned above, this must have been reciprocated and we are now probably even in a sense, and that Greece did not in the end lose down to Cyprus.

All I mean to say is that Greece provides the stability required for Cyprus to have a flourishing economy.

As for the GDP
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa ... os/gr.html
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa ... os/cy.html

the CIA World Factbook gives Greece GDP=$22,200 and Cyprus GDP=$21,500.

Other than that I totally agree with your post and I certainly do NOT consider Cyprus to be some sort of a "burden" for Greece, apologies if it seemed like I did.

[alexISS]

AlexiSS , It was the Greek junta that gave Turkey the green light to invade. The Junta that when Turkey invaded withdrew into their sumptuous homes and could not even be found by foreign diplomats in Athens. Makarios made the fatal error of under estimating the juntas total stupidity. They overthrew Makarios , not the Cypriots. Their diplomatic skills were those of a confidence trickster .The idiots could not see that the warnings given to them by the USA on Turkeys intentions were real .As of course the case always is , we can blame the good old Yanks , shake our heads and utter the profound statement >americaniko daxtilo.

When Bill Clinton visited Greece he even APOLOGISED on behalf of the US for "appointing" the junta..!