Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

Here is Miltiades's definition of the Western world.
1.The nations that allow us the divine right of expressing our views on any matter what soever.
2.The nations whose courts treat all citizens as equals .
3. The nations that all of us peasants , mostly from third world countries , come to in order to achieve what in our own nation we could not.
4.The nations that will stand up to dictators , theocratic nonsense included.
5.The nations that respect our right to our religious or non religious beliefs
6.The nations with free press that will not arrest journalists ( in Turkey they do ) for expressing views that are objectionable to the establishment.
7. The nations that continually feed the world , the poor world , where billions of aid are made .
8.CYPRUS IS PART OF THE WESTERN WORLD.

[cypezokyli]

Hey cypezokyli, sorry I didn't quite understand what you meant, do you mean the TC and GC leadership, or the British leadership, or all three?

Sorry, brains all muddled today!

Peace!

sorry natty, i guess i was not clear.

my questions :

did the british created the conflict between the two communities , or simply took advantage of sth already existing ?
was there ever a cypriot identity , or anyone who ever spoke about cypriots before 1960s (gc or tc) ? in short do we expect from an imperial power to construct such an ideology , that would obviously be against its interests ?
did the british created a two-gear system of did they simply follow the existing ottoman millet system (albeit not discriminating when it came to taxes) ?

what would you say, if i told you that the tcs spoke to the british empire, against the prospect of enosis in 1880-81 , 1902, 1911 etc etc ? or that in the mid-40s thousand of tcs protested against enosis ? were those also british creations ?

as to the tcs policemen. first , why do you think that british would need to put any effort to convince the tcs to join the police force against an organisation which was obviously working against their interests ? besides , after grivas started attacking policemen , what incentives did the gcs have to join the police force ? Moreover why would the british trust the gcs in allowing them to join the the policeforce ?
i am not saying the british (the westerners) did not used the situation for their interests. but now tell me, is there any party , that didnot work for its interest at that point in time (gcs , tcs or the british) ? unless you are in a position to convince even one tc that EOKA was fighting for their benefit as well

if you manage to do that, you will have my etternal respect..
...
the same things can be argued for england bringing turkey in the game. thats also ambivalent , and for sure not the whole truth. but i ll write later for that.


in short , what i am trying to say, is that using (or even recycling) some quotes from british diplomats, we end up overemphasizing the role of the british . no doubt there was a role, but its way exagurated imo.
the simple proof of that is :
in the past we were illiterate and the british could take advantage of that and use divide and conquer tactics for their own interests. now that we KNOW their tactics, and we know that fighting is not in our interests , why dont we strike an agreement ?

[miltiades]

The British used the Auxiliary police force , Epikourikous , for precisely one reason. Divide and rule.
The T/Cs that joined did so for one and only one reason. MONEY. The Turkish Cypriots did not as you say.
""tcs spoke to the British empire, against the prospect of enosis in 1880-81 , 1902, 1911 etc etc ? or that in the mid-40s thousand of tcs protested against enosis ? were those also British creations ? ""

Is there such documented evidence on this , point us to them.
You are misguided and you should be challenged when posting incorrect facts.

The Turkish element never came into play during the 50s , the 82 % of G/Cs totally ignored the fact that their Turkish compatriots might not agree with their stated aims.
There was no conflict between the G/Cs and T/Cs prior to the 50s struggle.

[cypezokyli]

The British used the Auxiliary police force , Epikourikous , for precisely one reason. Divide and rule.
The T/Cs that joined did so for one and only one reason. MONEY. The Turkish Cypriots did not as you say.
""tcs spoke to the British empire, against the prospect of enosis in 1880-81 , 1902, 1911 etc etc ? or that in the mid-40s thousand of tcs protested against enosis ? were those also British creations ? ""

Is there such documented evidence on this , point us to them.
You are misguided and you should be challenged when posting incorrect facts.

The Turkish element never came into play during the 50s , the 82 % of G/Cs totally ignored the fact that their Turkish compatriots might not agree with their stated aims.
There was no conflict between the G/Cs and T/Cs prior to the 50s struggle.

thank you for calling me misquided miltiades.
i will post my sources , and then you can sue the one who wrote them ....that is if you have the guts to do so.

or at least prove them wrong.
in case you cannot , you know what men do when they are wrong

Alexis Hrakleidis
to kypriako sygrousi kai epilysi
I. Sideris , Athens 2002
ISBN 960-08-0248-3

p.220
από την άλλη , αντίθετα απο ότι γενικά πιστέυεται, η μουσουλμανική ηγεσία είχε από την αρχή της βρετανικής διακυβέρνησης επίγνωση της απειλής της Ένωσης και είχε καταστήσει σαφείς τις ανυσηχίες της στους Βρετανους από πολύ νωρίς , και συγκεκριμένα το 1880-81, 1898, 1902, 1911, 1912, 1915, 1922, 1930 κ.ο.κ.
Τρία χρόνια μετα την έλευση των Βρετανών το 1881 δήλωναν σε μνημόνιο τους προς τη Βρετανική διοίκηση : "Ουδεμία κοινότης ουδαμού δύναται να απολάυση ασφάλειας,ζωής , περιουσίας και τιμής υπό διοίκησιν Ελλήνων , όντων αλαζόνων επί τοις ενδόξοις κατορθώμασι των εαυτών προγόνων... τούτο δε ειδικώς εφαρμόζεται δια τους Μωαμεθανούς οίτινες φυσικώς εισίν αντικείμενο εκδικήσεως αυτοίς"

in these two paragraphs he quotes
in the first McHenry 1987 p. 23, 25-30, 33, 38, 95, 131-3
in the second : attalides 1987. Pollis 1996 , p.95

on p. 221 he goes on :
Μετά το 1945 ο κυπριακός τουρκικός εθνικισμός άρχισε και κείνος να φουντώνει και να γίνεται μαζικός... Το Δεκέμβριο τοθ 1949 15000 τκ διαδήλωσαν στη Λευκωσία εναντίων της ¨Ενωσης.


hardly do i ever say sth without having sources to back it up....

[Kikapu]

Here is Miltiades's definition of the Western world.
1.The nations that allow us the divine right of expressing our views on any matter what soever.
2.The nations whose courts treat all citizens as equals .
3. The nations that all of us peasants , mostly from third world countries , come to in order to achieve what in our own nation we could not.
4.The nations that will stand up to dictators , theocratic nonsense included.
5.The nations that respect our right to our religious or non religious beliefs
6.The nations with free press that will not arrest journalists ( in Turkey they do ) for expressing views that are objectionable to the establishment.
7. The nations that continually feed the world , the poor world , where billions of aid are made .
8.CYPRUS IS PART OF THE WESTERN WORLD.

1. Partially true
2. Not true
3. Partially true
4. Not true
5. Partially true
6. Partially true
7. True
8. ????????

[miltiades]

Kikapu , so the courts in the UK , Germany , France , USA , Japan , Canada , Australia , Sweden , Switzerland , Austria are according to you not treating all citizens equally. I rest my case , the rest of the points are too damned childish for me to reply too. Just before I finish , you don't think that we have freedom of press in the UK , I presume that you can back this up can you.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu , so the courts in the UK , Germany , France , USA , Japan , Canada , Australia , Sweden , Switzerland , Austria are according to you not treating all citizens equally. I rest my case , the rest of the points are too damned childish for me to reply too. Just before I finish , you don't think that we have freedom of press in the UK , I presume that you can back this up can you.

Thats whay there're many more blacks in jail in the USA and death ROW than whites, in precentage wise. Poor people end up in jails and not the rich one's who can pay for good defence, for starters.

[miltiades]

I suppose the fact that blacks might be committing disproportionate to their numbers crimes doesn't enter the equation.

[miltiades]

CYPEZOKYLI , What exactly are you presenting as hard facts , would it be that the Ottomans who ruled Cyprus up to 1878 were insisting that Enosis was not on the cards , or merely expressing concern at the rise of Pro Enosis movements.
The fact is that the 82% , or at least the majority , had as their ultimate goal Enosis.
I do not generally read Greek accounts of the Cyprus conflict or indeed Turkish accounts. I suggest that Alexis Irakledis , a professor at a University I believe would not be my source of Historical documentation , I would most certainly check on google the hundreds of various interpretations of the Cyprus Conflict.The fact of the matter is that the British at the time never intended to leave Cyprus , and actively encouraged the T.Cs to oppose the goals of the G/Cs.
Personally , being totally against Enosis and being an ardent supporter of the Cypriot identity , I thank the British for doing us a favour.

[cypezokyli]

CYPEZOKYLI , What exactly are you presenting as hard facts , would it be that the Ottomans who ruled Cyprus up to 1878 were insisting that Enosis was not on the cards , or merely expressing concern at the rise of Pro Enosis movements.
The fact is that the 82% , or at least the majority , had as their ultimate goal Enosis.
I do not generally read Greek accounts of the Cyprus conflict or indeed Turkish accounts. I suggest that Alexis Irakledis , a professor at a University I believe would not be my source of Historical documentation , I would most certainly check on google the hundreds of various interpretations of the Cyprus Conflict.The fact of the matter is that the British at the time never intended to leave Cyprus , and actively encouraged the T.Cs to oppose the goals of the G/Cs.
Personally , being totally against Enosis and being an ardent supporter of the Cypriot identity , I thank the British for doing us a favour.

miltiades ....... anyway i respect the fact that you are older....

i said sth very specific.
you asked for facts .
I gave them to you.
now , you are questioning the sources. when what i posted was not the opinion of iraklidis , but a pure fact. the tcs were afraid of enosis from the minute the ottomans left the island.
if you have any facts that can convince me otherwise I am glad to read them. but ofcource you didnot post any facts - just judging who wrote them...... such a typical cypriot discussion