Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

I'm sorry Kifeas, but I fail to see the connection between the UN charter you have provided and what we were talking about, which was the 48 "unalterable" articles of the 191 articles in the Cypriot Constitution that was agreed between TC's and GC's. Even if the Guarantors could not interfere, the TC's were within their right to refuse any changes.

Kikapu, I am sorry but so far I had the impression that you, along and together with Bananiot, was trying to tell me that Turkey indeed had a right to a say and the right to interfere then in 1963 against Makarios 13-point proposals, and that the constitution was “unalterable” (by us Cypriots alone,) because of the rights the 3 guarantors had as signatories of the 1960 treaties, something which would have required their approval as well. I was trying to explain to you that this was not the case in 1963, and that Turkey did not have such a right, because such a right would have been against the UN charter, and that should we the people of Cyprus -G/Cs and T/Cs, wanted to do so, we had every right to go along with any constitutional amendment we would have agreed among ourselves, without having to discuss this with any other country, be it one of the signatory guarantors or not. Turkey’s public rejection in 1963, before the TCs, and instead of the T/Cs, was an illegitimate interference within our internal affairs. This is what I was trying to say.

As I said, lets ignore all the guarantors for the moment, so that it is in compliance with the UN charter, it still leaves the TC's with a veto power in the Constitution to refuse any changes to be made to the Constitution. Even if the TC's wanted to make some changes, then the question becomes, how do you change the "unalterable" articles that was in perpetuity (for ever). No, Makarios should have left things alone and work with what both sides had.

Kikapu, it seems we speak two entirely different languages. Makarios did not change anything alone and unilaterally, but he only proposed changes. Technically and legally he did not have the right and the power to have done so, that is way he made the 13-point proposals to the TC side, and that is why the constitution remains unchanged up to this day, as it was back in 1960.

What happened in the meantime was for the intercommunal violence to brake out in Nicosia, and then to be transferred into other parts of Cyprus, as a result of the growing tension between the two communities and the fact that they were both gathering weapons and arming each ones paramilitary groups (the TCs started first the armament campaign and the GCs followed shortly after them in 1962.) Upon the breakout of violence between those gangs of the two sides -in which the TC community indeed suffered proportionately more casualties, the TC side decided to withdraw from the government immediately and called the constitution and the RoC as completely nullified and dead. It almost immediately set up its own separate administration which it called the Transient Turkish administration of Cyprus, and called upon all the TCs via Bayrak radio to stop co-operating or having any dealings with the non-existing for them RoC (essentially a kind of mutiny.) The GC side then, following upon, refused to allow some of the TC public servants to enter their offices. Turkey become threatening for invasion and partition. The TC side and Turkey went to the UN, together with the GC side, and tried to prove that the RoC was violated and nullified, and therefore it should stop from being recognized by the UN as the legal entity of the country. The UN apparently did not buy into this argument and ruled in a resolution in favor of the continuation of the existence and international legality of the RoC, and called upon the two sides to enter into a dialogue in order to bridge their political and constitutional differences in a peaceful way. It also sent in early 1964, upon the above resolution, the first UN contingents in Cyprus to keep the peace between the two sides. The T/C side did not withdraw its previous decision to establish of a separate T/C government within Cyprus, and either because of the conflict and violence or because of its own accords, it began establishing and withdrawing into the so-called enclaves. The G/C side exploited and manipulated the above T/C leadership actions and more importantly the above UN resolution calling for a dialogue, and kept the TCs side outside the RoC government -hypothetically or presumably until the intercommunal dialogue would start and conclude into an agreement. The two sides continued to transfer arms in Cyprus in order to increase their military premises and strongholds and the formal “UN ordered” dialogue did not seem to begin because none of the two sides seemed ready and willing for it. Violence continued to erupt occasionally during the period after the UN resolution, with the example of the kokkina fights in August 1964 and the bombing of GCs by the Turkish air force, etc.

Eventually the constitution remained unchanged becasue no dialogue had started in order to finally completelly agree on anything in this direction, but for the G/C side this was not important anymore, anyway, since the T/C community was kept outside of the RoC functions. Eventually, in 1968 the two communities decided to enter into a dialogue which produced some very good progress and results which remained unconcluded because of 1974.

[Kifeas]

1. In August 1964, terrible things were taking place in Cyprus and turkey was on the verge of invading. Papadopoulos sent a message to the Americans saying that "if the Turkish armada enters to within 12 miles of Cyprus waters, this will be considered as the begining of the invasion. This will give us 75 minutes to rid Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots so that we can defend our country. We have the Plan and the Means to do this".

I already explained previously in this thread (a few pages back) under what circumstances the above "ultimatum" was forwarded to Turkey via the US, it was send only after Turkey started bombing GC villages with napalm bombs and the Turkish navy was outside Cyprus ready to invade, it was not the decision of Papadopoulos alone but of the whole government, and it was a legitimate scaremongering bluffing in order to discourage and avert the immanent Turkish invasion and to "force" the end the bombing and burning alive of GC civilians. When a small country such as Cyprus is faced with such an immanent threat by a country 100 times bigger, and without any other means to defend itself and its people, the above threatening letter is a perfectly legitimate mean to avert such a danger.

2. In November 1967 the Greek National Guard attacked the Turkish Cypriot enclave at Kophinou. The National Guard was headed by the notorious Gregorious Bonanos (Head of Staff during the junta period in Greece). Again, Turkey threatened to intervene. On November 15, there was a meeting at the Presidential Palace of the political and army leadership. According to Bonanos, Papadopoulos suggested that if Turkey sent in the airforce or tried to land forces, all the Turkish Cypriots would be exterminated, throughout Cyprus.

hehehe...

I really wonder why anyone should take you seriously.

In 1967, in the Kofinou events, it was not Bonanos in charge of the National Guard or of the Units that attacked the village, but it was Grivas. Nothing like you say above happened, and I call upon you to provide any proof and evidence that supports such wrongfull allegations and claims.

[Natty]

Hey, this is what it says in the book "Cyprus Conspiracy" about the "Kophinou attack", so it's one view of what happened,

..Frustrated by the impasse, Grivas took matters into his own hands, For several months, Turkish Cypriots in the southern village of Kophinou, which overlooks the strategic meeting point of the roads to Nicosia, larnaca and Limassol, had been setting up road blocks and preventing the Greek Cypriot police from passing through the town. Grivas devised a plan to break the Turkish Cypriot resistance. His troops, backed up by heavy weaponry, surrounded the area, and on 15 November he sent the first patrol into the neighbouring village Ayios Theodoros. That afternoon, he even turned up in the village himself with photographers to announce his success to the world. The next day, when the patrols continued, the Turkish Cypriots opened fire as Grivas's men tried to pull down a road block. The surrounding Greek Cypriot forces immediately launched an all out attack, bombarding the Turkish Cypriot positions in both Ayios Theodoros and Kophinou with artillery shells and automatic weapons fire. UN positions containing British troops were overrun and disarmed. Twenty four Turkish Cypriots and Two Greek Cypriots died in the attack.Grivas had made a dangerous error of judgment. Turkey threatened to bomb his forces if the action did not stop, and warned the UN that if it's troops did not drive the Greek Cypriots out of the area immediately 'a crisis which will go beyond the borders of the Island will be unavoidable'. The violence ceased within hours.

Grivas did very rapidly restore discipline but, noting that possession of the beach-head at Kokkina was enabling the Turks to bring in arms and men from Turkey, in August he launched, in defiance of the UN who were seeking to negotiate a local cease-fire, a major attack to eliminate this sore spot. Turkey attacked Greek positions from the air with rockets, bombs and napalm.

I also believe that the number of people killed in the intercommunal fighting is around, 191 Turkish Cypriots and 133 Greek Cypriots.

Peace!

[Bananiot]

It is sad when one realises that the truth really has to fight in order to surface. Here we are talking about some very turbulent years in the recent history of Cyprus and seeing three people that later created havoc in Greece having a centre stage role in events and all we do is just bypass this. These people (Papadopoulos, Ioannides and Bonanos) would just knock on the door of Makarios and suggest things to him (okay, by coincidence, always their suggestions referred to the extermination of the Turkish Cypriots) and this is viewd as "legitimate scaremongering bluffing"! How pathetic!

Let us look, again, a bit more closely at the events in Kofinou. Grivas was the leader of the National Guard, correct. He was an old and aging man by then. Bonanos designed the operation and basically he was in charge. Remember, since April, the colonels ruled supreme in Greece.

In 2000, the Greek Ministry of Defence decided to award a special military medal to all those that fought at Kophinou. Many people reacted to this, because the attack on Kophinou has been likened to the coup against Makarios, that is, another act of treason by the junta because the result of this operation was the removal from Cyprus of the Greek division that came in 1964.

Kophinou was inhabited by about 900 Turkish Cypriots and nearby Ayios Theodoros by about 700 TC's and 500 GC's. The events of 1963 and 1964 did not stir much problems in the two villages but the TC's did withdraw within the perimeters they could control. Police patrols would go through both villages on a regular basis without any problem. In July 1967 some minor incidents resulted in the interruption of police patrols. Makarios became fearful that an enclave would be created there had the GC's decided to leave. Thus, talks started taking place with the UN in order to restore the previous status, something that would convince the GC's to stay. The situation was almost resolved and by November 1967 the police were almost ready to resume patrols. By noon on November 14, the UN were informed that the patrols would resume in 25 minutes. From the previous night, units of the National Guard had taken positions around the two villages. At the same time, all the Greek forces had left their camps on that morning and took battle positions, expecting air attacks from Turkish planes.

At Ayios Theodoros, the TC's did not put up a fight. The triumphant Grivas entered the village victorious. On the next day, according to the UN, the Greek patrol was shot at (3 times). The National Guard immediately responded with sustained fire using heavy guns (mortar, cannons) and then soldiers on foot moved in to clear up any resistance, from house to house. Greek Cypriots have reported that a number of TC's were murdered by the soldiers and in an interview Marios Tempriotis (a well known person) who participated in the attack as member of the special forces, was very revealing. He told reporters that before the battle started, the officers told them "in any case, they will charge us with genocide, I want you to get in and leave no one alive". Tempriotis also talked of the looting by the soldiers that broke everything in the houses they entered looking for money. They reminded me of flocks of barbarians rather than soldiers, Tempriotis added. An 80 year old man named Mehmet Emin was wrapped by soldiers in a blanket and set on fire (Pierre Oberling "The road to Bellapais", Ν.Υόρκη 1982, σ.141-2).

The operation "punch" as it was christened ended miserably for the GC side, according to some analysers. This is because it resulted in the withdrawal of the Greek division from the island when Turkey threatened to intervene. Some believe that it was a carefully staged provocation in order to rid the island of the Greek division.

Who were behind the provocation? Some believe that the Greek junta and Grivas consired for the withdrawal of the division. This was the opinion of Andreas Papadndreou. Speaking in the Greek Parliament in 1986 he said that the attack was ordered by Greece (remember, the junta ruled then) and was guided by Greece. Makarios, he said, was in the dark. Papandreou admitted that the challenge to Turkey was huge. Atrocities were committed, he admitted, distruction and looting took place. In the same Parliament session, Mitsotakis says that the tragedy of Cyprus started from Kophinou

Other analysts (including Klerides) suggest that the attack was a choice of the Cypriot government and Makarios himself. Athens, they claim, very reluctantly accepted the plan. Still, others claim that Makarios was behind the attack because he wanted to get rid of the Greek division that by now was a junta instrument and of course from as early as 1967 the junta started work to oust Makarios.

[Bananiot]

Kifeas says that I am a public servant and as such I should pay more respect to the democratically elected president. How pathetic!

For a start I am not a public servant. I am a teacher and my allegiance lies with the truth. Secondly, even democratically elected Presidents are fully accountable and only in totalitarian regimes the Presidents and government officials are beyond criticism.

[NeverSayGoodbye]

So how many died G/C and T/C before the invasion of 74?

[Pyrpolizer]

Bananiot,

You may say whatever you want, present any conspiracy theories you like, tell truths, tell lies, allign 100% with the Turkish propaganda do whatever you want.

But tell me did you ever see even one TC doing the same? Where did you ever see any TC talking of what their side did in the 60-70s, or of what attrocities they did to us in in the 60s and in 1974? Did you ever hear anybody saying he knows the xx TC gunman who took all the male GC villagers in so many villages and exceuted them in cold blood? Do you know that the majority of the GC civilians out of the 6000 that died in 1974 were excecuted in cold blood by TCs and not by the Turkish Army?
Did you ever hear just one TC admitting while he was in high school he was trained on arms every weekend with real ammunition and then on Monday coming back to school he was boasting to his GC classmates of his expertise? Do you know that back in the 60s all TC high school students were doing the same? Where is the just one TC to open his mouth and tell these truths in the forums?

Hell the Turkish side committed 100 times more attrocities against us, what did you ever hear anything from the TCs?

Oh yes we heard a few stories for Sener Levent and Hasan Kafetzioglou and some others, but man all of those together cannot even catch 1% of your huge mouth. And you are not the only one. Every other corner we turn there is one wise GC opening his mouth and accusing his own side all the time without even caring to check what the other side did. This is the defeatist’s syndrome man, can’t you see? You are actually accusing your own kind, because you feel guilty for your own defeat.
[Hey Socrates that one was for you too, are you listening re, or you got banned back to your doc?]

The truth is always welcomed but what about the whole truth? Suppose everything you say is true (which is not anyway- but just suppose it is) where is the other half of the truth? Where is the TC that would present the other half?
And dont’ tell me you never hided what you know of the other half. It is obvious that you -like every other GC-don’t know much anyway.

NB. I noticed there are just 2 TCs here. One is Kikapu who emigrated from his childhood, the other is Viewpoint who is just interested for our stolen properties. What are we the rest of the GCs doing in here quaralling and fighting about with each other? What are we trying to prove?

[Pyrpolizer]

So how many died G/C and T/C before the invasion of 74?

Less than those who die from road accidents.

[Bananiot]

Oh dear! Here we are, in the era where nothing can be hidden, talking about keeping the skeletons in the closet! Yes, you are right, we all keep skeletons in our closets but they must be buried, if our two communities will ever come together and peace and stability are consolidated in Cyprus. Look at the Middle East for Christ sake. It is burning! Is this the time to talk about what percentage harm has done each community to the other? Where is such talk going to take us? If we do not solve the issue we would probably fight over it again. You, me, my children, your children, everyones children. In order to solve it we must bury the skeletons. Hiding them deeper in the closet just won't do.

Of course I know many TC's Bananiots. We get together often and we talk. Of course, for them it is more difficult to come out open, for they have been known to pay with their lives their love for Cyprus. What about the tens of thousands that took to the streets in 2003, some bearing the flag of the RoC? Against all the odds, puting their lives at risk and drawing the menace of the Kifeas's and Piratis's of their community? Oh yes, they were calling for the resignation of their democratically elected leader, under the watchful eyes of the Turkish soldiers. They Grey wolves were threatening to set off bombs. They must have been traitors and paid agents of the enemy ...

How many people died, someone asks: Damn it, Cyprus died!

[Pyrpolizer]

No Bananiot,

The TCs learn from childhood to keep their mouth shut.
And to keep a low profile. This is what I like about them.
Our ancestors were stupid enough to translate that as weakness. However it is not.

Whereas we learn exactly the opposite.
And our stupids shine like the ass in the sun.

Tell us more about the fears of your TC Bananiots.