Cyprus-Forum.com

[Socrates]

I think what Natty says is correct.

The genocide and the ethnic cleansing are two different things.

Akritas plan didn’t want this two but the result was an ethnic cleansing and divides of people.

I thing what we must stop using the above to describe what Akritas plan was because it’s enough to understand what there was racism (mostly from our site) and there was also a disagreement of the TC community at the aims of the GC. The disagreement alone is healthy but what our government allows to happen is sick. Even if the TMT was started first to provoking our government reaction was totally madness and the quality of our leaders was barbaric.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyrpolizer you mind is full with air and you made your own conclusions based on air.

I pitty you!

[Kikapu]

Kifeas,
Just because the Akritas plan did not spell out every detail as to what was the "plan" for the Turkish Cypriots, you must know in your heart, that there were no positives for the TC's. The "plan" had it's purpose which was to be carried out step by step as not to create a major chances over night, and with each step forward, would have meant one step closer for the TC's final outcome, whether it meant to be killed or leave the island. I'm sure, TC's leaving the island would have been preferred by the "plan", as not to create huge backlash form abroad.

I like to know from you, since you and Piratis and others do not buy into the "plan", how do you explain the events of 1963-1974. The "plan" had to have ignited the "fire" I talked about earlier, which you seem to have dismissed it, by blaming other doing it. You, Piratis and me see George bush as untrusworthy, where's Miltiades and few others see him very trustworthy. Of all the lies Bush talked about regarding Iraq, half the country still support him, so is it possible, you just do not want to accept that Makarios or PappaD and others could have had any such "plan" against the TC's, because you yourself could not imagine doing it, to your fellow country men.

There was another plan that was written back in June 3rd, 1997, by NeoCons of the USA, regarding Iraq and the Middle East that no one knew about until recently, that was written by major players in Bushes administration, including, Cheyney, Rumsfield, Wolfowittz, Jeb Bush, Dan Quayle and many others. So the Iraq invasion was decided back in 1997 and not as Miltiades likes to believe after 911. That was just the spring board for the attack. The plan is called "PNAC", "Project for the New American Century". If you google it, you will have a great deal to know what the plan was all about. You can also www.newamericancentury.org . "Plan's" usually have more hidden agendas than one would like to believe.

Kikapu, if you believe that mere speculation as to what the GC leadership’s deeper intentions may have been, is enough to allow you or anyone else to write history in a way in which a victimizing stigma will be left against the GC community for having conspired to “annihilate” the TC community, then you must know that we will never allow you or anyone else to promote such an objective. We will not allow you to do that, mainly for two reasons. The first and most important is because it is not based on any concrete evidence, but it is rather based on a whole series of assumptions and to a large extent skewed and far stretched interpretations of facts. You have the right to present, analyze and criticize any and all of the actual facts and events, but you have no right to invent, imply and impose facts and events based on perceptions and deliberate misrepresentation or deliberate and skewed misinterpretation of other facts and events. This is not how history is written!

The second reason we will not allow this to happen, is because we know for certain that the reason the above is happening is because there is an imperative need to incriminate and victimize the GC side, due to a need to legitimize and eventually also legalize (if this can be possible) the 1974 ethnic cleansing (and this is a fact) of the GCs from the north by Turkey, and the on-going occupation ever since; or to legitimize the appearance and facilitate the adoption of unacceptable “solution” proposals like the Annan plan.

The former (legitimization of the ethnic cleansing and occupation) is the aim of the Turkish propaganda since then (1974,) and the later (facilitate the adoption of solutions like the Annan plan) is the aim of GC people like Bananiot! Both aims are based on the need for the complete victimizing incrimination of the GC side for the past! Those from the Turkish side that engage themselves in this mission are called propagandizes! Those from the Greek Cypriot side are called traitors! Both of them though are also called history fabricators, because they base nearly all of their conclusions on mere speculations, assumptions and factual misrepresentations.

Now, the Akritas plan was indeed an evil plan aiming to usurp the separate, anyway excessive and certainly unfairly disproportional but nevertheless, constitutional rights of the Turkish community; primarily –if not exclusively- through the introduction and use of devious, manipulating and cunning political means and methods, for the (not the sole as such) aim of promoting enosis. It did not envision, as such, the violation of the Turkish Cypriot's individual fundamental human rights -as they are stipulated in the UN chart and the CoE human rights protocols, nor the usurping of their individualy based political rights, neither their individual and communal cultural rights, nevertheless it did not envision their annihilation and /or their forceful expulsion from Cyprus. I am saying the above not because I want to appear as an appeaser, as someone has already suggested, of the Akritas plan, but because this is the only undeniable evidence one may extract from reading it.

Now, if because there was /is a natural fear on the part of the TCs that this may have potentially or eventually turned out to have been the outcome (annihilation or expulsion,) I am ready to acknowledge and accept the existence of such a fear, but I am not ready to accept that because of the no matter how justified perception of such a danger the TCs have had, that this was also indeed the intention and /or aim of the GC leadership, or that this is what indeed and beyond doubt would have been the final result. I feel no one is allowed to make such an unsubstantiated “concrete and absolutist” allegation against the GC leadership and the GC community in general, and to propagandize such a thing certainly constitutes a deliberate unfair historical victimization and incrimination against us, something we are not ready to allow to happen.

Kifeas,
I had to read your post twice as not to miss anything, and I have to say, that you're very sincere in what you write, and your concerns to your community and how this all could be used as a propaganda tool by the TC's on future agreements on Cyprus, and if I said I did not understand your concerns, I would be lying. Often to get to the bottom of any truth, specially when any plan in conceived and concealed by small group of people is very hard to come by. I'm surprised, a copy of the Akritas plan even surfaced, but one needs to ask the hard and painful questions to get to the bottom, and it may take many many years to do that, but eventually, the truth will surface. Unfortunately, it will cause damage along the way. This is the price we need to pay, if we ever want to live in a open society, otherwise, we should let dictators take over.

Up until April, when I joined this forum, I really did not discuss the Cyprus conflict with anyone that knew very much about the island. I'm not a member of any Turkish organizations, nor do I have any regular Turkish friends to speak off, and I do not have anything negative toward Greek people, despite having to experince at first hand when the shit started in 1963. I recently wrote a post describing a life for a 8 year old before and after when the first bullets started to fly on this thread, so I take all accusations regarding the Akritas plan and evil leaders at the time very personally. It is not to re-write history. but to try to expose the truth. Just as much, I will tell the truth as I know it, to condem Bush for his evil doings, even if it means hurting America, country that I love. But we need to ask the hard questions until all the truth emerges.

[Kikapu]

[quote

[Kikapu]

I repeat the facts, though I do not expect certain people to understand. In 1959 we signed an agreement that created an independed Cyprus, in which lived two equal communities that were partners in the running of Cyprus. This agreement excluded enosis but also partition, since the Turkish Cypriots would never allow enosis and the Greek Cypriots would never allow taksim (partition). This agreement was miles better than the agreement that led to enosis of Crete with Greece. There were no mass population movements (in fact, not a single person had to move) and laid the basis for a peacefull and prosperous future for all Cypriots. Yet, the bigots on both sides never believed in independed Cyprus. Makarios and his henchmen tried to achieve enosis via the side door. This was a God sent gift to the extremists on the TC side who siezed the opportunity to further their plans. From then on, the fait of Cyprus was sealed. I personally, put most of the blame on our side. We could have prevented tragedy if we isolated the extremists on our side and practically show our TC compatriots that we were guardian angels of the Constitution. Yet, we embraced the bigots and armed them (that is the legitimate government) and sent all the wrong signals to the Turkish Cypriots who now turned to their bigots for protection.

It is a sad story Natty, but a true one and as a great Greek once said, "only the truth serves the national interests". Those that try to stop the truth from surfacing will accuse people of being "traitors" and "agents of the enemy" but in practice, they have nothing to offer to the legitimate national interests, and when I say national, I do not for a minute forget that they include the interests of both communities.

I think Pyrpolyser, being horribly biased, fails to understand the essence of the tragedy in Crete. Almost one hundred thousand Cretan Turks were relocated. They left everything behind and were sent to live in foreign lands. There is still a whole village of them in Syria today! One million Greeks were relocated from Asia Minor. They left everything behind, properties, memories, the graves of their forefathers.

Such was the menace of the cultivated hatred within the two people. This was imported to Cyprus (and perhaps fuelled to an extend by the Brits). The two communities lived side by side for centuries in relative peace. Only when national inspirations were revived by the so called patriots, clouds began appearing in the blue sky of Cyprus. Suddenly, it became evident that we could not live together. Blood was shed, anger and frustration grew in both communities. Loved once were lost and bullets spoke instead of logic. People were overtaken by events. Sane people on both sides became sorry minorities and the "patriots" called them traitor or agents of the enemy.

In this environment, eventually, the stronger militarily side is bound to win the day. Our doomsday came in August 1974, but it was inevidable, because we wanted all. We (that is Makarios) even rejected functional federation in the early 70's which provided for the Turkish Cypriots to stay in their areas but have more freedom to deal with their community business's.

Thereafter, unlike Crete and in order to minimise human suffering, we all agreed to designate an area (zone) to the Turkish Cypriots and an even bigger one to the Greek Cypriots and go for a bicommunal bizonal federation (BBF). Many people say that they subscribe to this solution but in reality many people in our side do not want it. I suspect that Papadopoulos is one of them. Certainly, all the head people in his Party are against it.

Many people would say that BBF is a compromise and a necessay evil. I do not agree. It is the best solution in view of all that have taken place in Cyprus since 1955. Simply, we do not deserve anything better. Even if I was given a choice between a unitary state and BBF I would choose the latter. I would, until such day comes, when the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots show a heavy hand to those that incite racial hatred, rather than elevate them to a hero's status. We are, alas, a long way to this day yet. Thus, for the time being and as long as it is needed, a BBF is the best solution.

Bananiot,

This is a great post, but my first choice would be a unified Cyprus with equal power sharing as not to return back to the dark days again. A New Republic for all Cypriots, to once again claim the whole island for ourselves. We need to have trust in the leadership to do the right thing for all of us, but it's just a question of having the will and desire to make it happen.

[Pyrpolizer]

I think Pyrpolyser, being horribly biased, fails to understand the essence of the tragedy in Crete. Almost one hundred thousand Cretan Turks were relocated. They left everything behind and were sent to live in foreign lands. There is still a whole village of them in Syria today! One million Greeks were relocated from Asia Minor. They left everything behind, properties, memories, the graves of their forefathers.

Think whatever you like. The above extract shows very clearly who is the distorter of truth and the biased one.

Enosis of Crete with Greece happened in 1915 and not even one Turk was hurt because of that.
The things you describe above happened 7 years later because of war that had nothing to do with Enosis of Crete with Greece.
And yes one million of Greeks were uprooted from Anatolia because of that war and 180,000 Turks from Crete AND OTHER AREAS OF GREECE not because Crete united with Greece but because of war, in totally different areas for totally different reasons.

Herebelow I quote once again why you are a distorter of the truth -that quite accidentally as you claim- just happens to serve the Turkish propaganda.

For example, in 1915 Crete united with Greecre (enosis) and at the time there were 80 000 Cretan Turks who were very proud people indeed. After enosis, not a single Turkish Cretan soul remained in Crete!

Tell me something are you a paid Agent of Turkish propaganda?
The reason not even one Turk remained in Crete is because that was part of the population exchange agreement between Venizelos and Ataturk. Not because of Enosis! For this same reason no Greek was left in Anatolia.

Now answer my question straight: Are you or are you not a paid Agent of Turkish Propaganda?

[Kifeas]

I repeat the facts, though I do not expect certain people to understand. In 1959 we signed an agreement that created an independed Cyprus, in which lived two equal communities that were partners in the running of Cyprus. This agreement excluded enosis but also partition, since the Turkish Cypriots would never allow enosis and the Greek Cypriots would never allow taksim (partition). This agreement was miles better than the agreement that led to enosis of Crete with Greece. There were no mass population movements (in fact, not a single person had to move) and laid the basis for a peacefull and prosperous future for all Cypriots. Yet, the bigots on both sides never believed in independed Cyprus. Makarios and his henchmen tried to achieve enosis via the side door. This was a God sent gift to the extremists on the TC side who siezed the opportunity to further their plans. From then on, the fait of Cyprus was sealed. I personally, put most of the blame on our side. We could have prevented tragedy if we isolated the extremists on our side and practically show our TC compatriots that we were guardian angels of the Constitution. Yet, we embraced the bigots and armed them (that is the legitimate government) and sent all the wrong signals to the Turkish Cypriots who now turned to their bigots for protection.

It is a sad story Natty, but a true one and as a great Greek once said, "only the truth serves the national interests". Those that try to stop the truth from surfacing will accuse people of being "traitors" and "agents of the enemy" but in practice, they have nothing to offer to the legitimate national interests, and when I say national, I do not for a minute forget that they include the interests of both communities.

I think Pyrpolyser, being horribly biased, fails to understand the essence of the tragedy in Crete. Almost one hundred thousand Cretan Turks were relocated. They left everything behind and were sent to live in foreign lands. There is still a whole village of them in Syria today! One million Greeks were relocated from Asia Minor. They left everything behind, properties, memories, the graves of their forefathers.

Such was the menace of the cultivated hatred within the two people. This was imported to Cyprus (and perhaps fuelled to an extend by the Brits). The two communities lived side by side for centuries in relative peace. Only when national inspirations were revived by the so called patriots, clouds began appearing in the blue sky of Cyprus. Suddenly, it became evident that we could not live together. Blood was shed, anger and frustration grew in both communities. Loved once were lost and bullets spoke instead of logic. People were overtaken by events. Sane people on both sides became sorry minorities and the "patriots" called them traitor or agents of the enemy.

In this environment, eventually, the stronger militarily side is bound to win the day. Our doomsday came in August 1974, but it was inevidable, because we wanted all. We (that is Makarios) even rejected functional federation in the early 70's which provided for the Turkish Cypriots to stay in their areas but have more freedom to deal with their community business's.

Thereafter, unlike Crete and in order to minimise human suffering, we all agreed to designate an area (zone) to the Turkish Cypriots and an even bigger one to the Greek Cypriots and go for a bicommunal bizonal federation (BBF). Many people say that they subscribe to this solution but in reality many people in our side do not want it. I suspect that Papadopoulos is one of them. Certainly, all the head people in his Party are against it.

Many people would say that BBF is a compromise and a necessay evil. I do not agree. It is the best solution in view of all that have taken place in Cyprus since 1955. Simply, we do not deserve anything better. Even if I was given a choice between a unitary state and BBF I would choose the latter. I would, until such day comes, when the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots show a heavy hand to those that incite racial hatred, rather than elevate them to a hero's status. We are, alas, a long way to this day yet. Thus, for the time being and as long as it is needed, a BBF is the best solution.

I am glad that at last I am able to -not just tolerate reading something the above individual ever wrote in relation to Cyprus, but even identify with to some extent.

[Bananiot]

As I said on numerous occasions, I will not shy away from the truth even if it hurts. Let us look closely at the Cretan issue. In 1898 the Turkish army left Crete and a Cretan Republic was pronounced. Many Cretan Turks left Crete at the time because there was considerable ethnic cleansing especially in the east part of Crete (see Henry Noel Brailsford). Before the Ottoman Turks left, the Cretan Turks amounted to almost 30% of the population of Crete. After the Ottomans left the percentage was reduced to about 3%. After enosis, many more left and of course, all left in 1924 as result of the agreement for population exchange with Greece.

You can claim that not one Turk was hurt because of enosis and expect people to believe you, just as Papadopoulos did in his now infamous interview with "Al Khaleez", where he claimed that not a single Turkish Cypriot was hurt between 1963 and 1974.

Now, the reason why I brought Crete into the argument was to show that the Turkish Cypriots were influenced by the events in Crete and were very unlikely to subscribe to our national aspirations for enosis. Yet we chose to ignore this and by doing so we basically worked for our downfall.

Kikapu, I respect your choice, but I am compelled to look for viable alternatives. You see, even among ourselves we cannot even begin to agree on our recent history. People here call me a traitor and a paid agent of Turkey, simply because I do not subscribe to their kind of thruth. I cannot see how a unified Cyprus can be made to work, unless we expell all Cypriots and bring in Scandinavians.

[Pyrpolizer]

Aposhei mouyia mouyiazetai.
I simply asked you if you are a paid agent.Do you know the meaning of a question? It always has this --> ?

Regardless, thank you for admitting that Enosis of Crete with Greece was not the reason the Turks left.

[Pyrpolizer]

After enosis, not a single Turkish Cretan soul remained in Crete!

After enosis, many more left and of course, all left in 1924 as result of the agreement for population exchange with Greece.

So Bananiot did they ALL leave because of Enosis, or did they ALL leave because of the population exchange agreement after the war of 1922.

Thanks again for admitting they ALL left because of the population exchange agreement.