Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

18% is a minority. First realize this basic fact a 2 year old can know and then come to discuss again.

Numerical minority yes, but 2 partners can be different heights they are still partners, one is no less that the other or does one have the right rule the other. This doesnt suit your real aim of GC domination so of course you will continue to ignore it which will mean continued stalemate.

What part of partnership do you not understand? Last Saturday Gambari/Talat/Papadopolous it was clearly stated BBF and Political equality, this means an equal partnership.

am not going to discuss undemocratic formulas were the 18% minority can have 50% power

Undemocratic according to GCs not the UN, EU, USA, UK, taking into account that this is the only way safety valves can be put in place.

You think yourselves as the super minority unlike all other due to the 1960 agreements, yet you refuse to give to us our rights according to those agreements. As we say "You want yours, yours, and ours yours again"!!

Super minority or not those agreements have been signed, are you going back on what you signed? you cant as you cling onto them so dearly today, they will continue to exist with us as one half of that partnership.
We dont believe those agreements will works as we say in the 1960s and that why we are still trying to agree a new solution/plan.

If you stick to those agreements then we stick to those as well, and thats the end of story. So now end the illegalities and allow constitutional order to be restored according to 1960 agreements. If you want negotiations for something different then you have to be willing to give up something from those agreements. Otherwise why should we negotiate? So we will be the only ones who give and you the only ones who take?

You didnt stick to them before and came up with Akritas whats to say you wont do the same via EU, we need more safety valves to ensure you will behave and not try to dominate the whole island and exclude us.
If you feel it not worth while negotiating then tell the world this and accept whatever the consequnces are.

[Kikapu]

[THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY

Sovereignty of the people.

Government based upon consent of the governed.

Majority rule.

Minority rights.

Guarantee of basic human rights.

Free and fair elections.

Equality before the law.

Due process of law.

Constitutional limits on government.

Social, economic, and political pluralism.

Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise.

[/quote]

Piratis,

Thank you for posting what a "true democracy" means. As I remember, all the "pillars of democracy" that you posted, were infact in the 1960 constitution, which the majority, only after 3 short years decided that, they actually did not believe in the "pillars of democracy" which happened to be the GC governing body. So, now you want to preach to "viewpoint" and everyone else what we should accept, when it was rejected by your side. So, I don't know why you object to other forms of methods to govern the country of Cyprus. After all, she is a very small, very insignificant, and very little else, in comparison to major nations, where political and economic decisions are made, that may or could have repercussions around the world. Please, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put our country down, but I don't know how else, to try to make you see my point. We are like two fleas fighting over who owns the dog that they are both occupying. It is a useless effort, to try to show the other who the majority is and who controls power. This is nothing more than, each one having same size penis, except one wants to puts a tooth pick at the end of his penis, as to claim his is two inches longer.

[Piratis]

I will not waste more of my time.
I said already:
Democracy
Human rights
EU principles

If you want to have discussions within those principles no problem.

Beyond that I will not waste my time with lame excuses as to why those things can not happen in Cyprus when they exist in all other democratic countries.

I will just laugh that the excuse always come down to "GCs are evil and now they have to be punished for eternity", when this excuse comes from the Turks who have committed 10s of thousands of murders and have oppressed Greek Cypriots for the most part of the last 5 centuries (and they continue with the same middle age practices of land grab, ethnic cleansing and human rights violations as we speak)

And then Turkey wants to join the EU

[Kikapu]

I will not waste more of my time.
I said already:
Democracy
Human rights
EU principles:

Who said anything about excluding the above. Anyway, for you having the extra two inches tooth pick seems very important than your country. I hope she will be impressed.!!

[Piratis]

Who said anything about excluding the above.

I am not talking for accepting just the labels. I am talking about accepting the essence of them. Viewpoint rejects it telling me about other "shades". Something like that Red is a shade of Yellow!

So if you leave out the "creative shades" and you accept:

Human Rights
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Democracy
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

then we can talk. Otherwise we are really wasting our time.

[Kifeas]

It is a useless effort, to try to show the other who the majority is and who controls power. This is nothing more than, each one having same size penis, except one wants to puts a tooth pick at the end of his penis, as to claim his is two inches longer.

No Kikapu, this is not what Piratis is trying to tell you! What Piratis is trying to tell you is that in this country we do not just and only exist as mere communities on a 1:1 level, but we also exist (each one of us) as individual Cypriot Citizens. In other words, Cyprus should not only be seen as a partnership of two communities, each one of which is holding just one of the two shares that make up the total number of shares; but should also be seen as a partnership of the people as a whole, on an individual basis, with each one of us as individuals holding one share out of the 850 thousand of shares that the total population of Cyprus is made off.

You seem to subscribe to the first kind of partnership, i.e. the only two shares approach, simply because it suits you more in this way; Piratis seems to support the second kind of partnership, simply because it suits him more in this way. Both ways have their legitimacy, but at the same time both also have their opportunistic ingredient for been supported by the two of you.

What we need to do in this case is to find ways to strike a balance between the two types (levels) of partnerships, i.e. the one that claims we have two shares and two partners (the TC and the GC community,) and the one that claims we have 850,000 shares and each one of us -as an individual Cypriot- is holding one such partnership share.

[Kikapu]

[What we need to do in this case is to find ways to strike a balance between the two types (levels) of partnerships, i.e. the one that claims we have two shares and two partners (the TC and the GC community,) and the one that claims we have 850,000 shares and each one of us -as an individual Cypriot- is holding one such share.

Kifeas, you are the man of the hour. That's all I'm asking for, is to find a balance between the two communities. Well said.

[Viewpoint]

It is a useless effort, to try to show the other who the majority is and who controls power. This is nothing more than, each one having same size penis, except one wants to puts a tooth pick at the end of his penis, as to claim his is two inches longer.

No Kikapu, this is not what Piratis is trying to tell you! What Piratis is trying to tell you is that in this country we do not just and only exist as mere communities on a 1:1 level, but we also exist (each one of us) as individual Cypriot Citizens. In other words, Cyprus should not only be seen as a partnership of two communities, each one of which is holding just one of the two shares that make up the total number of shares; but should also be seen as a partnership of the people as a whole, on an individual basis, with each one of us as individuals holding one share out of the 850 thousand of shares that the total population of Cyprus is made off.

You seem to subscribe to the first kind of partnership, i.e. the only two shares approach, simply because it suits you more in this way; Piratis seems to support the second kind of partnership, simply because it suits him more in this way. Both ways have their legitimacy, but at the same time both also have their opportunistic ingredient for been supported by the two of you.

What we need to do in this case is to find ways to strike a balance between the two types (levels) of partnerships, i.e. the one that claims we have two shares and two partners (the TC and the GC community,) and the one that claims we have 850,000 shares and each one of us -as an individual Cypriot- is holding one such partnership share.

I agree totally but I suspect Piratis will not as he is all out for a balance in favour of the majority which happens to be his own community. I have been trying to explain this balance of 2 partners as shades (or formula) of democracy but unfortunately have had no luck convincing him that the democracy and human rights in Botswana are totally a different shade than those in Belgium. The mechanism that administers the same principles is the key to ensure that everyone is treated the same. Although the basic principles in theory are universal, the application and results are totally different between different countries. Just saying that the majority in Cyprus will administer the principles fairly unfortunately does not cut water with us, because of our past experiences. It is vital that we strike a balance that will instill confidence in everyone on the island that everyone will be treated exactly the same without having to run to the ECHR every 5 minutes.

[Piratis]

I have been trying to explain this balance of 2 partners

Here we go again. Were did Kifeas talk about a "balance between 2 partners" and you agreed with him already??

He talked about a balance between the equality of citizens and equality of communities.

In many occasions I have said that TCs could be given things that no other minority has, such as veto powers in certain important matters, quarantined proportional (and even boosted) representation in the government, affirmative actions etc, all these on top of our major compromise that the 18% TC minority can be the majority (and therefore run) one of the 2 states. This a "shade" of democracy. What you talk about is a shade of apartheid.

[Natty]

Whilst establishing an independent and sovereign Republic, the Constitution of Cyprus, "unique in its tortuous complexity and in the multiplicity of the safeguards that it provides for the principal minority, ... stands alone among the constitutions of the world" (S.A de Smith, The New Commonwealth and its Constitutions, London, 1964, p. 296). Therefore, it was no surprise that, within less than three years, abuse of safeguards by the Turkish Cypriot leadership led to total unworkability of the Constitution which necessitated the proposals for constitutional amendments submitted by the President of the Republic and which were immediately rejected by the Turkish Government and subsequently by the Turkish Cypriot community.


22. Turkey, in furtherance of its designs based on territorial aggrandizement, instigated the Turkish Cypriot leadership's resort to insurrection against the State, forced the Turkish Cypriot members of the executive, legislature, judiciary and civil service to withdraw from their posts and created military enclaves in Nicosia and other parts of the island. As a result of the foregoing and the intercommunal violence that ensued the Security Council of the United Nations was seized with the situation and by resolution 186 (1964) of 4 March 1964 a peacekeeping force was sent to Cyprus and a mediator appointed. In his report (S/6253-A/6017) the Mediator, Dr. Galo Plaza, criticized the 1960 legal framework and proposed necessary amendments which were again immediately rejected by Turkey, a fact which resulted in serious deterioration of the situation with constant threats by Turkey against the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cyprus which necessitated a series of United Nations resolutions calling, inter alia, for respect of the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus.


23. The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965 described the policy of the Turkish Cypriot leaders in this way:


"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots" (S/6426).

[/quote]Thank you for posting what a "true democracy" means. As I remember, all the "pillars of democracy" that you posted, were infact in the 1960 constitution, which the majority, only after 3 short years decided that, they actually did not believe in the "pillars of democracy" which happened to be the GC governing body. So, now you want to preach to "viewpoint" and everyone else what we should accept, when it was rejected by your side. So, I don't know why you object to other forms of methods to govern the country of Cyprus[quote]




I know I've used the above quote before, but it clearly shows that to a certain extent, both communitites rejected the plan...And the fact that the plan was flawed and highly complicated didn't help the matter either....

Peace!:)

PS, I got the quote from the UN Human Rights page (again, sorry!:))