Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, you wanted partition since the day you were born since this is what your parents have brainwashed you with.

There will be a day that you will realize your mistake of rejecting unity, democracy and human rights. You have already convicted yourself in living in an undemocratic military ruled pseudo state and you are trying to inherit the same to your children.

Our door is open for you when you decide that you can respect democracy and human rights in the same way that exist in all other EU and other civilized democratic countries. Until then, please stop wasting our time.

We will fight for justice within EU and Turkey will pay dearly if she insists on illegalities and on the violation of the sovereignty of our country.

Meanwhile you can go to your "motherland" and insist that they should implement an Annan plan solution for themselves because Kurds are not a minority and therefore they should have their own separate state consisting of 40% of Turkey, as well as 50% power share. So go to convince your "own" before you come to convince us that 18% is not a minority and all that other crazy you say and waste our time.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Viewpoint, you wanted partition since the day you were born since this is what your parents have brainwashed you with.

Typical GC rhetoric, if we dont agree with you 100% we must be brainwashed, get over yourself and try to understand that people like you will ruin any chances of reunification.

There will be a day that you will realize your mistake of rejecting unity, democracy and human rights. You have already convicted yourself in living in an undemocratic military ruled pseudo state and you are trying to inherit the same to your children.

Unity, when? where? GC human rights and democracy no thanks Ill leave it. Where and how I live is my choice and not yours, the sad thing is that TCs would rather live how we are than with you, which you should take personally.

Our door is open for you when you decide that you can respect democracy and human rights in the same way that exist in all other EU and other civilized democratic countries. Until then, please stop wasting our time.

GC style, no thanks.

We will fight for justice within EU and Turkey will pay dearly if she insists on illegalities and on the violation of the sovereignty of our country.

Do your worst but be prepared for the results which may not what you envisaged.

Meanwhile you can go to your "motherland" and insist that they should implement an Annan plan solution for themselves because Kurds are not a minority and therefore they should have their own separate state consisting of 40% of Turkey, as well as 50% power share. So go to convince your "own" before you come to convince us that 18% is not a minority and all that other crazy you say and waste our time.

Do the Kurds have agreement with the Turkish people like we have with you in 1960, if they have then they have every right to claim their rights via the UN just like us.

[Piratis]

GC style, no thanks.

GC style? But I said MANY TIMES that I would accept anything that exist in any other EU country. How is that GC style? You are the ones who insists for something that exists nowhere else in the whole world simply because it suits you.

I would even accept "Turkish style". The 18% Turkish Cypriot minority can get what the 20% Kurdish minority have in Turkey.

Will you reject the Turkish style of human rights and democracy Viewpoint??????

[Viewpoint]

I have it now and have had no problems.

And I have said many times its importnant who administers human rights and democracy and we dont not want GC to do this on our behalf.

[Piratis]

I have it now and have had no problems.

And I have said many times its importnant who administers human rights and democracy and we dont not want GC to do this on our behalf.

It will not be on your behalf, but you will participate proportionally in the administration as it happens with all minorities.

Should all minorities ask for 50% power if they do not accept that others will have more say in the administration of the country?

What you are asking for is undemocratic.

THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY

Sovereignty of the people.

Government based upon consent of the governed.

Majority rule.

Minority rights.

Guarantee of basic human rights.

Free and fair elections.

Equality before the law.

Due process of law.

Constitutional limits on government.

Social, economic, and political pluralism.

Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise.

[Iran Forever]

[quote="Piratis"][quote]GC style, no thanks.
[/quote]

GC style? But I said [b]MANY TIMES[/b] that I would accept anything that exist in [b]any[/b] other EU country. How is that GC style? You are the ones who insists for something that exists nowhere else in the whole world simply because it suits you.

I would even accept "Turkish style". The 18% Turkish Cypriot minority can get what the 20% Kurdish minority have in Turkey.

Will you reject the Turkish style of human rights and democracy Viewpoint?????? :shock:[/quote]
I support you Piratis! I like your comments too!

[Viewpoint]

I have it now and have had no problems.

And I have said many times its importnant who administers human rights and democracy and we dont not want GC to do this on our behalf.

It will not be on your behalf, but you will participate proportionally in the administration as it happens with all minorities.

Should all minorities ask for 50% power if they do not accept that others will have more say in the administration of the country?

What you are asking for is undemocratic.

THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY

Sovereignty of the people.

Government based upon consent of the governed.

Majority rule.

Minority rights.

Guarantee of basic human rights.

Free and fair elections.

Equality before the law.

Due process of law.

Constitutional limits on government.

Social, economic, and political pluralism.

Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise.

You should really study the Federation and Confederation models to realize the various structures/partnerships that can be set up to provide a solution for communities from different back rounds. Take a look at recent events in Serbia & Montenegro, prior to seperation a balance was agreed with an option to split after a referendum which was what has happened.
You tend to concentrate on the rights of individulas when you talk about human rights and democracy where as I am referring to the mechanism that will provide and administer these principles. This is where the balance has to established to ensure neither community is excluded from matters that will effect them negatively.

[Piratis]

Serbia & Montenegro was formed by two separate entities. Montenegrians owned Montenegro, Serbians owned Serbia and they decided to form some kind of union of their two areas.

If you owned northern Cyprus then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. Just like Montenegrians decided that they want to be separated from Serbia and that was something perfectly legal you could have done the same and it would have been the end of story.

The reason that you pseudo state is not recognized all these years is that it does not belong to you. You STOLE IT. In the process you ethnically cleansed 200.000 people and violate the rights of many more.

TCs are a minority in Cyprus and they do not own any separate part of land of their own so they can do that land what they want (form federations, declare independence etc)

I repeat that this is the root of the problem. If you owned northern Cyprus what would have been the problem????? The problem is that you don't own that part of RoC, and you illegally occupy it. Get it??

A similar example would be the 12% blacks in the USA to take 24% of the USA just for their own and ethnically cleanse everybody else from there.

In fact the closer example to Turkish Cypriots is the one of Turkish Bulgarians. In Bulgaria again the Turks are a minority that appeared in that country during the Ottoman rule, and again they do not own a separate region just by themselves. So If you want to look for models of power sharing between communities, the Bulgarian example is the closest one to Cyprus and not the one of Serbia - Montenegro.

In fact you mentioning Serbia - Montenegro reconfirms what I always say that what you want is a loose association that can easily be broken up in the future like Serbia Montenegro or Chzehoslovakia.

For you plans like the Annan plan are nothing more than a stepping stone to permanent partition, which would have happened not immediately, but only after you drove us bankrupt and gained EU entry. Do you really think you can fool us in that cheap way?? Noooo. You either accept a true unity, or you will remain an illegal pseudo state until Cyprus can be liberated from the foreign invaders.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis I am just providing examples of various formulas (brands, shades call it what you will) have been applied around the world that are functioning that can provide human rights and democracy for all.

Serbia & Montenegro was formed by two separate entities. Montenegrians owned Montenegro, Serbians owned Serbia and they decided to form some kind of union of their two areas.

I am well aware that each have their own desginated areas but this can also be resolved by a combination of land reduction, financial compensation and GC returning to live in the TRNC.

The point about Serbia Montenegro is that they agreed a forumla/balance for their specific situation and allowed self determination as an option.

If you owned northern Cyprus then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. Just like Montenegrians decided that they want to be separated from Serbia and that was something perfectly legal you could have done the same and it would have been the end of story.

The reason that you pseudo state is not recognized all these years is that it does not belong to you. You STOLE IT. In the process you ethnically cleansed 200.000 people and violate the rights of many more.

How can you steal something you partly own, we both own a house jointly and due to problems between us i occupy 3 rooms and you 7 but dont allow you into my 3 how is that stealing?

TCs are a minority in Cyprus and they do not own any separate part of land of their own so they can do that land what they want (form federations, declare independence etc)

Read above this can also be solved through land return/compensation/refugee return.

repeat that this is the root of the problem. If you owned northern Cyprus what would have been the problem????? The problem is that you don't own that part of RoC, and you illegally occupy it. Get it??

We also have a right to occupy part of Cyprus as we are joint owners, the fact that we cannot use all the island together is not just my fault is has just as much to do with you and your mistakes.

A similar example would be the 12% blacks in the USA to take 24% of the USA just for their own and ethnically cleanse everybody else from there.

Did the blacks ever own the USA? do the blacks have an agreement (eg 1960) with the US government to share the USA? and does the US use that constitiution to this day?

In fact the closer example to Turkish Cypriots is the one of Turkish Bulgarians. In Bulgaria again the Turks are a minority that appeared in that country during the Ottoman rule, and again they do not own a separate region just by themselves. So If you want to look for models of power sharing between communities, the Bulgarian example is the closest one to Cyprus and not the one of Serbia - Montenegro.

Do the Turks in Bulgaria have anything like our 1960 agreements? if they have then they have every right to ask for their rights or try to come to an agreement everyone could commit to.

In fact you mentioning Serbia - Montenegro reconfirms what I always say that what you want is a loose association that can easily be broken up in the future like Serbia Montenegro or Chzehoslovakia.

For you plans like the Annan plan are nothing more than a stepping stone to permanent partition, which would have happened not immediately, but only after you drove us bankrupt and gained EU entry. Do you really think you can fool us in that cheap way?? Noooo. You either accept a true unity, or you will remain an illegal pseudo state until Cyprus can be liberated from the foreign invaders.

You have to accept that their are varied models and solutions that will can provide human rights and democracy for all, a model that works in the UK maynot be the right model for us as it needs to be adjusted to resolve our problems.

It is because I do not see us agreeing a plan that both sides would commit to I subscribe to the clean break theory of permenant partition as being the only solution we could agree to. This is gaining ground as people like you and Kifeas continue to show that is not unity that you want but GC dominaiton over the numercally smaller TCs in our own country. The sooner you realize we are your partners not just another minority the sooner you will move towards a formula that satisfy both sides concerns.

[Piratis]

18% is a minority. First realize this basic fact a 2 year old can know and then come to discuss again.

I am not going to discuss undemocratic formulas were the 18% minority can have 50% power.

You think yourselves as the super minority unlike all other due to the 1960 agreements, yet you refuse to give to us our rights according to those agreements. As we say "You want yours, yours, and ours yours again"!!

If you stick to those agreements then we stick to those as well, and thats the end of story. So now end the illegalities and allow constitutional order to be restored according to 1960 agreements. If you want negotiations for something different then you have to be willing to give up something from those agreements. Otherwise why should we negotiate? So we will be the only ones who give and you the only ones who take?