Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Sorry for been hasty in my comments, but I really dont have time to look who said what.
Anyway someone said he is afraid the TCs will be treated like second class citizens, thats why they need securities and ask questions want safety valves etc.

We in fact treat second class citizens like second class. The uneducated GCs, the ilegal foreign workers, the heroin adicted Pontians etc etc are all treated like second class not because they are minority but because they are in fact second class.The Armenians the Latins and Maronites they are minorities too, nobody treats them like second class.In fact the most successful first class people living in RoC are some very tiny minorities like the Lebanese, the Russians etc.

So if the Tcs are second class they will be treated like second class. I guarantee you most of the settlers will be treated like second class if they stay here. (Btw how do you the TCs treat the settlers-do you treat them like first class?)

But what the hell, all the TCs I met so far, including the TCs in this forum dont seem to be second class… In fact I can hardly notice any difference comparing them with the GC.

The average Gc passed through 100 times more hardships than what the average Tcs has. Our society is cruel, heavily capitalistic, and almost zero socialist although through some artificial measures the rulers manage to fool everybody.
In any solution be sure you will get the status you deserve. No safety valves or whatever nonsense is going to give it to you.

[Biker]

will the two communitites really every truly trust each other?...

No.

[miltiades]

YES ! THEY JUST HAVE TO TRY !

[andri_cy]

I think that it will take a long time and a lot of work coming from both sides. I believe, though, that if both sides let go of their motherlands and start working toward each other it can be achieved.

[Viewpoint]

Then why is that we cannot show the tollerance ,understanding and compromise necessary to come together under one united Cyprus. Please save me the human rights and democracy sermon that goes without saying but their are different shades everything is not always black and white.

Yes Viewpoint, there are different shades. You can have dark green, light green, glossy green etc. But red is not a shade of green.

Inequality of citizens based on their ethnic background does not belong to any "shade" of democracy. Do you know ANY other democratic country in the whole world were citizens are separated based on their ethnic background, language or religion?

Also you can not have a "shade" of human rights, were the basic human rights do not exist.

Therefore we are flexible, but not as flexible as to accept something undemocratic and against human rights because it suits you better that way.

Nothing is a rigid as you seem to want to make it, we all want human rights and democracy for all but for speical situations you have to be more innovative and compromising to get the ball rolling otherwise we will continue to maintain the surrent status quo.

Let me ask you the following question, how do you envisage the structure of the upper house where laws and decisions will finally be passed, that will effect us all in a united Cyprus? express your brand of democracy for all. What is the balance you want that will satisfy you takinginto account both sides concerns.

[Piratis]

Nothing is a rigid as you seem to want to make it, we all want human rights and democracy for all but for speical situations you have to be more innovative and compromising to get the ball rolling otherwise we will continue to maintain the surrent status quo.

We are as compromising as possible. At the same time don't you think that you also have to at least respect our human rights? (we are not even asking from you to be compromising as you ask from us! Just to show some respect!)

express your brand of democracy for all

I have no brand. I want for Cyprus what exist in any other democratic country. For example UK, France, Italy, Greece, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Latvia, Poland, Germany, Denmark, Ireland, Austria etc. Even what they have in Turkey! Or maybe what they have in all these countries and even in Turkey is "my brand" of democracy?

Therefore I am not asking for a very special kind of "democracy" that will fit my needs and violate your human rights. This is what you demand from us.

This is how the government of the USA (your friends) define democracy:
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY

Sovereignty of the people.

Government based upon consent of the governed.

Majority rule.

Minority rights.

Guarantee of basic human rights.

Free and fair elections.

Equality before the law.

Due process of law.

Constitutional limits on government.

Social, economic, and political pluralism.

Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise.

Majority Rule and Minority Rights
All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

Diane Ravitch, scholar, author, and a former assistant U.S. secretary of education, wrote in a paper for an educational seminar in Poland: "When a representative democracy operates in accordance with a constitution that limits the powers of the government and guarantees fundamental rights to all citizens, this form of government is a constitutional democracy. In such a society, the majority rules, and the rights of minorities are protected by law and through the institutionalization of law."

These elements define the fundamental elements of all modern democracies, no matter how varied in history, culture, and economy. Despite their enormous differences as nations and societies, the essential elements of constitutional government--majority rule coupled with individual and minority rights, and the rule of law--can be found in Canada and Costa Rica, France and Botswana, Japan and India.

So Viewpoint, in Cyprus we can protect the minority rights of Turkish Cypriots in the best possible way. We can also give to TCs more power than any other minority in the whole world. We are VERY flexible and VERY compromising.

But you can not ask as to have in Cyprus something undemocratic that is more similar with Apartheid of South Africa than anything else just because it suits you better that way.

Yes, that current status that is forced illegally against our will is bad. However accepting and legalizing something undemocratic and against human rights would be even worst.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

We are as compromising as possible. At the same time don't you think that you also have to at least respect our human rights? (we are not even asking from you to be compromising as you ask from us! Just to show some respect!)

What have you compromised on? whats the result? has been effected? when? where? You have what you want a recognized Greek Cypriot state united to Greece via the EU.

I have no brand. I want for Cyprus what exist in any other democratic country. For example UK, France, Italy, Greece, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Latvia, Poland, Germany, Denmark, Ireland, Austria etc. Even what they have in Turkey! Or maybe what they have in all these countries and even in Turkey is "my brand" of democracy?

As for your rights in the TRNC, its like asking China or Korea to respect you human rights, whether they do its up to them, we are divided and that allows different countires to apply their own rules to foreigners, if those laws and regulations are considered against people human rights then let amnesty interantional prepare and file a report. Im not saying that we should not try and address your concerns and endeavour to adopt human rights and democracy for all who live on this island but this can only be done via an agreement where everything is clearly set out. Just demanding it wont change a thing when you dont have binding agreements between our communites to adopt and apply the princples you refer to. For the time being your brand and my brand will differ as it does at the moment between your country and lets say Finland, where they apply democracy and human rights much more fairly and sucessfully, thats what i refer to when I refer to differing brands. The receipe may be the same but the resılts are clearly not.

So Viewpoint, in Cyprus we can protect the minority rights of Turkish Cypriots in the best possible way. We can also give to TCs more power than any other minority in the whole world. We are VERY flexible and VERY compromising.

But you can not ask as to have in Cyprus something undemocratic that is more similar with Apartheid of South Africa than anything else just because it suits you better that way.

Yes, that current status that is forced illegally against our will is bad. However accepting and legalizing something undemocratic and against human rights would be even worst.

This where you fall flat, firstly we have an international agreement 1960 that we are partners and we have protected rights which exceed the rights of Indians in the UK or the blacks in the USA, do you agree? oe are you saying you want to scrap these? then why are you clinging onto them so tightly for last 33 years after you kicked us out? obviously it gives you what you always wanted a GC state.

If you want to scrap them tell the world thats what you want to do, if you are saying I am prepared to negotiate another agreement then you cannot expect us to just back down from the 1960 agreement and accept being any minority in a GC state. We will argue that we are partners and have rights in sharing the running this island on a fair balance.

If you cannot comprehend that we are your partners and not just a minority then we will continue with the current situation until a time we can form a fair partnership.

Another point is that we will never become minority and do you know why? because TCs we will never put their trust GCs to protect and implemement minorty rights like other countries. To do this you will have to wait for the swing in power in favor of your community so that you can force it upon us but dont expect us to sit idly waiting for this to happen.

[Piratis]

What have you compromised on? whats the result? has been effected? when? where? You have what you want a recognized Greek Cypriot state united to Greece via the EU.

So now Turkey wants ENOSIS with Greece as well? Hey, I thought wanting such thing was a crime! How come Turkey wants it also?

As for your rights in the TRNC, its like asking China or Korea to respect you human rights, whether they do its up to them, we are divided and that allows different countires to apply their own rules to foreigners, if those laws and regulations are considered against people human rights then let amnesty interantional prepare and file a report.

Thank you Viewpoing for finally stop bullshitting us that you want unity etc.
Thank you for admitting that you are still dreaming of Partition and that you see dreams that the north part of our country that is illegally occupied by Turkey is a different country and we are foreigners there.

Did you just realized that you can not label as "unity" your partition plans, and as "democratic" the undemocratic apartheid crap that you want to force on us?

This where you fall flat, firstly we have an international agreement 1960 that we are partners and we have protected rights which exceed the rights of Indians in the UK or the blacks in the USA, do you agree? oe are you saying you want to scrap these?

No YOU are saying that you want to scrap this, don't you?
If you don't then give us back the 100% of our rights according to that agreement and get your 100% of your rights according to that agreement?
Why don't you agree to this and you instead insist on illegality?

Since YOU insist to scrap that agreement, then when it will be scraped, something that will require our agreement to happen, it needs to be replaced with something that we also agree to.

So what will you choose: 1) 1960 agreements as they are, 2) something different that requires our agreement, or 3) you will continue with illegality and crimes?

By the way, you made no comments about the "THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY"? Do you disagree with the definition of Democracy? Come on Viewpoint, the "trnc" officials did not supply you with propaganda material to deal with this case? E.g. a document written by Mr. Y Z that has his own definition?? I am amazed!! Maybe your "government" should hire somebody to write an "alternative" definition then? (but he should be very careful, because the same definition should be applied to both TCs in Cyprus and Kurds in Turkey. Oh, maybe not, I forgot that the 20% of Kurds in Turkey are a minority and the 18% of TCs in Cyprus are not )

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

So now Turkey wants ENOSIS with Greece as well? Hey, I thought wanting such thing was a crime! How come Turkey wants it also?

Thought your response would have been much better you avoid the main comment Greek Cypriot state issue and divert it to union with Greece. But thats ok, the difference is that before you wanted to turn Cyprus into Greece and anialate the TCs now you will not call Cyprus Greece but have indirectly united with 24 other states including Greece but can not wipe out the TCs just try and turn them into just any minority. Turkey does not want to and never has wanted to call itself Greece it wants to join a christian club more fool them.

Thank you Viewpoing for finally stop bullshitting us that you want unity etc.
Thank you for admitting that you are still dreaming of Partition and that you see dreams that the north part of our country that is illegally occupied by Turkey is a different country and we are foreigners there.

Did you just realized that you can not label as "unity" your partition plans, and as "democratic" the undemocratic apartheid crap that you want to force on us?

Come on Piratis I have always said I prefer partition and thats why I am on this forum to see if there is anything that can make me see why I am wrong, you and Kifeas are doing a great job in confirming that I am right.

You are a Greek Cypriot and like it or not you are classed as a foreigner in the TRNC.

No YOU are saying that you want to scrap this, don't you?
If you don't then give us back the 100% of our rights according to that agreement and get your 100% of your rights according to that agreement?
Why don't you agree to this and you instead insist on illegality?

What you are offering is not on the table, if it was then a group of TCs that have claimed back rights under the 1960 constitution should have been welcomed with open arms and told what conditions they have to meet for TCs to get back their rights, looks like what you preach and what your administration do are 2 different things.

Since YOU insist to scrap that agreement, then when it will be scraped, something that will require our agreement to happen, it needs to be replaced with something that we also agree to.

So what will you choose: 1) 1960 agreements as they are, 2) something different that requires our agreement, or 3) you will continue with illegality and crimes?

1 is being claimed as we speak.
2 we tried with the Annan plan.
3 will continue until we agree otherwise.

By the way, you made no comments about the "THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY"? Do you disagree with the definition of Democracy? Come on Viewpoint, the "trnc" officials did not supply you with propaganda material to deal with this case? E.g. a document written by Mr. Y Z that has his own definition?? I am amazed!! Maybe your "government" should hire somebody to write an "alternative" definition then? (but he should be very careful, because the same definition should be applied to both TCs in Cyprus and Kurds in Turkey. Oh, maybe not, I forgot that the 20% of Kurds in Turkey are a minority and the 18% of TCs in Cyprus are not )

Piratis you really need to wake up and realize that we are divided and have been for 32 years. Each country around the globe applies Democracy and human rights differently and many are far from perfect, the TRNC and your Greek Cypriot state included. We do not have a joint "The Pillars of Democracy" vision or application thereof. If we fall short like many countries including yourselves then do what you have advised me to do when I expressed my concerns with regards to being just another minority in a GC state and go fight for your rights via the relevent international bodies.

Piratis you should really get off your high horse and realize that we were your partners but that partnership broke down in order to get it running again we have to ahev a road map and rules that we will not be allowed to make the mistakes of the past. We are not against putting in place laws and regulations that will ensure everyones human rights and ensure democracy for everyone in a united Cyprus but this will not just arrive on our door step if we say it enough times. But for now we are not united we are divided and need to have something better put before us so that we can both commit. For now there is nothing, so life goes on as is.

[Simon]

Viewpoint Says:

[quote]I have always said I prefer partition [/quote]

I have been a member of this Forum for a while now, and unfortunately, it seems that this is now the majority view of TCs. People like Militiades and Cypezolyki can keep fooling themselves; but the more I hear from all sides, the more I am resigning myself to the fact that Cyprus will never be truly reunited. Opinion polls on the GC side suggest that more and more GCs don't want to live with TCs anymore; especially the younger generations, and almost every TC I hear does not truly want reunification anyway. There were only three reasons it seems why they voted for the Annan Plan, 1) It was stealth partition anyway. 2) Gave them massively disproportionate rights. 3) To end their isolation and join the EU. I do not believe it was because they actually truly wanted Cyprus reunited.

It seems that any solution will be based on a loose confederation, which is practically partition anyway.

I am seriously beginning to think that the best solution is formal partition; an 80/20 split or somewhere thereabouts. This 'only Cypriot' concept which Militiades especially have been relentlessly pushing is simply a non-starter. I for one am not going to completely supress my identity to go along with this concept, and neither will hundreds of thousands of others. I am very proud to be Cypriot, but equally proud to be a Greek one. It is a no-brainer to ask are you Cypriot or Greek? It is like asking a Scot if he is Scottish or British. It is a question which contradicts itself - Cypriots are Greek or Turkish, and Cypriot. They are both - it is not an either/or question. Marcos Baghdatis summed it up perfectly when he said, "Cyprus and Greece is not one country, but for me it is the same thing." Cyprus and Greece were not allowed to unite when they both wanted to, but this now does not mean that all of a sudden Greek Cypriots are no longer ethnic Greeks because Militiades and a few others say so. I will never accept this. I am proud of being a Greek Cypriot, and nobody will make me drop either one. It makes me laugh when some people push this 'only Cypriot' concept; when the North actually call their part 'Turkish.' They have thousands of settlers from Turkey living there. Do you seriously think they will just forget their Turkishness and Turkey, who they say is responsible for saving their lives, to become purely 'Cypriot.' You people who believe this live in a fantasy world.

Therefore, I am coming to the view that we should stop begging (as some in the past have done) TCs to reunite and live with us, and start instead trying to negotiate as much of our land back as possible, so we can get as close to that 80% as possible and get proportionality based on population numbers back in Cyprus.