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Architect arrested - does this really help the situation?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:02 pm

sadik wrote:
The only thing that this kind of behavior will achieve is further alienate the TCs and the GCs from each other. The problem in Cyprus is not a problem of criminal law and it is not a problem between individuals. The fact of the matter is that there are 40000 Turkish troops in the north, and Papadopoulos can do NOTHING about this, neither he has the desire to do anything about it, and he decides to go after individual TCs as if it's their fault. What is next? Am I also going to be arrested the next time I visit my GC friends, because I sold a case of diet coke and beer to construction workers?

The only thing that can effectively stop the construction on the GC property is a solution. And there is no hope in that area. For gods sake, it will have taken 2 years for Papadopoulos to meet Talat over a cup of cofee, if the meeting takes place today. What are we supposed to do as TCs? Wait for another 30 years, until the GCs come to terms with their unwillingless to share anything with the TCs, and accept to live in poverty indefinetly so that we "keep our motivation for a solution".

The only outcome of this kind of developments will be that the TCs will stop using the Larnaka airport and they will stop shopping at Marks and Spencer. This is the achievement they are after?


I have to agree with Sadik on this aspect.

If the RoC was to start enforcing its laws to the letter, practically there will be few TCs that wouldn’t be subjects to an arrested. This would have tremendously affected the already damaged climate between the two communities. This is why the RoC authorities -who by definition and by default have a duty to apply the law to its letter in all other cases relating to Cypriot citizens living in the south (G/Cs,) are essentially been asked to close their eyes and ignore any under the letter of the same law violations, that may affect Cypriot citizens living in the north (T/Cs.) This is a fact, and it relates to all aspects of life.

However, there are a few particularities in this case and other similar cases which could not have been ignored.

One relates to the Orams’ case, which coinsidentally is going to its hearing stage in the UK very soon. One of the Orams’ basic defending arguments in the British high court that examines the enforcement of the case (ruling) in the UK, is that the attempted application of RoC laws regarding property rights, is done very selectively and exclusively for her, and perhaps a few other foreigners (British,) in a discriminating fashion, while at the same it (RoC) chooses to ignore and not prosecute any TC that is involved in similar situations, even though they know within the letter of the law there is at least an equal involvement by TCs in this practice, and which are allowed to freely and systematically cross south without been questioned or prosecuted. This constitutes a double standard approach towards two sets of EU citizens. In this the Orams are right!

The second point I wanted to make relates to the fact that the arrested individual was not just an architect (and one can be pretty sure that there is almost no TC architect in the north that hasn’t at any stage made plans for construction on GC property in the north,) but was (the arrested T/C) also found to be a partner (not the major partner I believe) in a construction company in the north that has developed and started construction projects on GC land that the company currently “posseses.” Furthermore, the arrested T/C was also carrying plans and promotion material (brochures and leaflets in boxes) in his car (for unspecified but profound reasons,) while passing from the north to the south, something which means that he was also engaged in the promotion of this activity.

Now, given all the above, can the RoC authorities at the check point that searched his car and found this material -especially in an open space in which this was probably also been observed by other individuals, easily close their eyes and let it pass, and pretend that nothing is happening. It is a very difficult issue indeed. Any G/C that may attempt to do the same, either with GC land in the north, or T/C land in the south, is subject to the strictest enforcement of the law that will most certainly lead him to imprisonment. Yet, both G/Cs and T/Cs are regarded as citizens of the RoC, and they are both supposed to equal in the face of the law.

What I would say (and “suggest’) is that until this anomalous situation is ended in whichever way, the T/Cs that cross south to at least be careful in what they are carrying in their cars or to be careful in what kind of activities they are engaged with, while in the south -and there are some who even go to tourist areas in the south and approach real estate agents, tourist companies and even individual tourists, with the intent of promoting properties in the north, under the nose of G/C refugees and under the nose of the RoC authorities. Such practices are adding insult to injury and they live no other option to the authorities than to arrest and prosecute such individuals.
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Postby miltiades » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:28 pm

Socrates , please study the Annan plan and you will see that nowhere in the plane were provisions made to guaranty that the agreements would be honoured either by Turkey or Cyprus. The plan talks of UN Monitors , ie referees that can blow the whistle but can not insist on the foul being corrected. I repeat again that this plan would eventually have led to intercommunal strife and more blood and tears.
ARTICLE I .
3. The Treaty of Establishment, the Treaty of Guarantee, and the Treaty of Alliance remain in force and shall apply mutatis mutandis to the new state of affairs. Upon entry into force of this Agreement, Cyprus shall sign a Treaty with Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom on matters related to the new state of affairs in Cyprus, along with additional protocols to the Treaties of Guarantee and Alliance. ""

This refers to the 1960 agreement , this agreement has been violated by both sides , more so with Turkey invading and occupying a part of Cyprus , are we to accept a continuation of this inapt agreement ?
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Postby Socrates » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:48 pm

I’m not speaking about the plan I’m speaking about a voting of the UN Security Council that’s securing the implementation of the plan.

The voting didn’t pass because of us.

We were looking for an excuse.

I’ll try to bring you more info on this.

The 60 agreement for the guarantees adopted as it was but there was a security valve that saying what to interfere must pass from the UN.
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Postby miltiades » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:28 pm

Socrates , you are missing the point here : The agreement put forward to the people of Cyprus on the referendum date DID NOT PROVIDE GAURANTEES that all parties all parties would implement as agreed .Have you got a copy of the plan , if not I can email the entire text to study , this will show unequivically that this plan was not a reunification plan but a legal division of the island , as I posted earlier even the roads of Cyprus were divided .
The police issue is part of security , and the plan calls for 50% of police force to be made up of T/Cs .No problem with this.But flying the Turkish flag on a police station in my village or indeed the Greek flag . NO Thanks. I'm a Cypriot .
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Postby Socrates » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:49 pm

Socrates , you are missing the point here : The agreement put forward to the people of Cyprus on the referendum date DID NOT PROVIDE GAURANTEES that all parties all parties would implement as agreed
.

I know that that’s why I criticize our government actions. I agree with you.

Have you got a copy of the plan , if not I can email the entire text to study , this will show unequivically that this plan was not a reunification plan but a legal division of the island , as I posted earlier even the roads of Cyprus were divided .


I do not agree with that it’s to far extend assuming. I’ll find you an analysis of Mr. Toumazos Tsielepis and even from Mr. Markidis if you don’t believe what he is a traitor (Because they’ve stamp him to badly).

The police issue is part of security , and the plan calls for 50% of police force to be made up of T/Cs .No problem with this.But flying the Turkish flag on a police station in my village or indeed the Greek flag . NO Thanks. I'm a Cypriot .


I don’t know anything about this issue but if something like that is true is absolutely ridiculous.
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Re: Architect arrested - does this really help the situation

Postby Bill » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:25 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Which fact are you stating Bill?

You are just making a general allegation that TC land in the south ( ROC ) has been GIVEN to G/Cs in the last 4 years to build villas. This is simply not possible under the existing RoC legal framework. Furthermore, I am following the press daily and I am not aware of any such a case, in the way you describe it!

I am not aware of any such case in which the RoC authorities gave TC land to anyone to build his own villa, or sell them to third parties. I am simply not aware, and I also doubt that there was such a case, unless the person, that had used such a property to build, bought the property first from its TC owner in a legal way.


Kifeas -- Thats how I understood the situation -- it should not be possible under existing ROC legal framework.

I also wasn't aware of this til a few years ago when building started on TC owned land in a village where a friend lives and I naturaly asked why -- I was told that they were given a portion of land ( each portion was a half plot size) by the government and they built at their own risk of possibly losing it if and when there was a solution to the Cyprus problem -- they would never have the Title deeds and as such would never be able to sell it.

My friend who lives nearby can't understand why they have taken such a risk -- he is also not very happy as he ( actually his wife ) used to collect the olives from the trees that were previously on this land and he kept his hunting dogs there -- as did most of his neighbours.

The only possible explanation I can think of to explain this giving of land is that it's not far from refugee housing that was built in 1976 on TC land and I wonder if the government had marked a larger area out for refugee housing --- but not actually built on it in the 70's as enough houses had already been built to accomodate refugees wishing to live in that area.

Send me your email address via a pm and I'll mail you photo's if you wish when I return to the UK in September.

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Postby Bananiot » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:56 pm

Sener Levent wrote an interesting article in "Politis" today. Worth reading. He scorns the double face GC politicians that eat and drink and embrace, at times, the TC legislators that voted the laws that made it possible for the GC police to arrest and imprison the TC architect. Perhaps, he goes on , the GC side should issue a warrent for the arest for Ferdi Soyer, who is the most responsible person in the TC community for the tricky situation that exists regarding the exploiting of GC properties in the north.
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Postby Bill » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:47 pm

miltiades wrote:But flying the Turkish flag on a police station in my village or indeed the Greek flag . NO Thanks. I'm a Cypriot .


Oh --- this is one of the few subjects that I would make my views known whilst in the company of Cypriots in Cyprus ( and for that matter in the UK ) I feel very strongly about this subject -- so strongly I'm prepared to argue the point until I leave -- or asked to leave -- which has actually happened but only on the one occassion.

This guy had a Greek flag pinned to the wall in his living room and proudly anounced to all whilst beating his chest tarzan style that he was proud to be Greek -- when I asked innocently what part of Greece did he come from he replied "Cyprus" --- after a long talk about this emotive subject my reply of " I was probably more Greek than he was" (and there's a element of truth in this statement :wink: ) prompted me having to leave pretty quickly :roll: .

Although I know this will upset some on both sides it is my heart felt desire to see the Cyprus flag flying everywhere in Cyprus -- not the Greek flag or the Turkish flag -- THE CYPRIOT FLAG.

You are Cypriots whether it be of Greek or Turkish origin

BE PROUD OF YOUR FLAG -- AND YOUR ISLAND

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Postby miltiades » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:50 pm

Bill I told you we had identical views .
It doesn't mean that we reject the Greek in us , on the contrary , but Cyprus is our country not Greece.
We will always have a special relation with Greece and the T/Cs likewise with Turkey .What if Greece was playing Turkey for the world cup . of course we would support Greece and the T/Cs will naturally support Turkey.
BUT IF CYPRUS WAS PLAYING EITHER OF THESE TWO WE, AS CYPRIOTS , WILL SUPPORT CYPRUS.
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Postby Bill » Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:02 pm

miltiades wrote:Bill I told you we had identical views .
It doesn't mean that we reject the Greek in us , on the contrary , but Cyprus is our country not Greece.
We will always have a special relation with Greece and the T/Cs likewise with Turkey .What if Greece was playing Turkey for the world cup . of course we would support Greece and the T/Cs will naturally support Turkey.
BUT IF CYPRUS WAS PLAYING EITHER OF THESE TWO WE, AS CYPRIOTS , WILL SUPPORT CYPRUS.


On re reading my post I've just realised how patriotic I was sounding :shock:

Piratis would be proud of me --- but then again perhaps not :roll:

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