Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Stuballstu and others, there is no point talking about the Annan plan any longer. The Annan plan was rejected and cannot be brought back, because it is completely unfair for the GC community, in all aspects and areas. The biggest problem with this plan is with its central philosophy.

The 1960 agreements vertically split the people of Cyprus on the basis of the “ethnic” background, something unusual for any other country and largely problematic for the functioning of a state. The Annan plan maintains and continues this vertical splitting of he people of Cyprus, but it also goes one major step further and splits also horizontally the country into two countries, each institutionally belonging to infinity to each of the two communities, which are upgraded into two separate people, contrary to the any and all the historical realities of this island. The Annan plan constitutes a completely unhistorical “solution” for Cyprus.

The GCs will never accept the 29% of the territory of their country, the 47% of the coastlines and beaches of their country, the 50% of their historical and ancient landmarks, churches and monasteries, and an area of their country in which more than 25% of their population has historically always existed, built cities and villages and produced culture and civilisation, for thousands of years, to be transferred to infinity to the exclusive ownership of the TC community alone. We will never accept such an idea, as it was introduced from the back door as the philosophy of the Annan plan and was covered under the so-called virgin birth approach.

The Annan plan was not a Bi-communal and a bi-zonal federation. It was a confederation between two ill-perceived historically pre-existing nations /states. Forget it! It attempted to legitimise and legalise most of the illegal fait accomplices of the Turkish invasion, occupation and ethnic cleansing of the GCs from the north!

There is no Greek Cypriot who knows, respects and honours his /her history, that will ever put his /her signature under such an idea! Forget it!

Any TC that supports such a plan, in reality doesn't want a solution of the Cyprus problem!

[miltiades]

Suballstu , a very constructive post , your views are always well balanced and well thought out.
May I ask you if during the 60s and 70s when you say the Turkish Cypriots were living in enclaves , self created , were you in fact part of that your self or is it what Turkish Cypriot history has taught you. I remember visiting Ayios Loucas, Famagusta , in the latter 60s and early 70s (was even there in July of 1974 ) and what particularly amused me was the fact the Turkish Cypriots were closed in behind the walled city of Famagusta , but came out to the "Greek part" daily to go about their daily business. You must surely know that the Turkish Cypriot leadership at the time was not only encouraging the T/Cs but also dictating to them that all contacts with the G/Cs bust be severed. The enclaves were the creation of the T/Cs in order to promote their aim of creating a separate state , partition was the Turkish mainland plan going back many years. The Turkish Cypriots were manipulated by Turkey and the enclaves were not created in order to protect themselves from the G/Cs.
All this is now water under the bridge, the G/Cs wanted Enosis , at that time so did I. We have grown up now ,the majority of Cypriots have rejected Enosis , in fact I would hate the idea of the bloody Greeks running my country.
I wonder if you think the Turkish Cypriot aspirations have also changed, it would be interesting to hear your views.
As far as your statement concerning acceptance of the plan by most Nations , yes this is true , but it wasnt put to the world it was put to the natives of Cyprus . Rejection of the plan was in my mind the correct outcome for the future of Cyprus.The solution provided by the plan was unfair to a large majority of Cypriots and it would in time progress to communal strife leading to more instability .
I agree with you that the present government of Cyprus should be doing far more to bring about fresh discussions leading to perhaps a re negotiated plan , or least be open in precisely what it wants T/Cs -Turkey to do.
You are no doubt a reasonable man and also a well educated one , you must I'm sure see that unless the overwhelming majority of Cypriots are at least 50% happy with a plan , it simply will not be accepted.
The arguments that many GCs put forward again and again is that since we are the 82% , and since this 82% consider Turkey to be occupying part of our island , we are most certainly not going to endorse this illegal occupation - remember the 82 % of Cypriots see this as occupation - by accepting the Annan plan that legalised Turkey's occupation of Cyprus.
I like to make one more point , this is based on my own observations here in London working in an environment where a large number of my customers are Turkish Cypriots , Mainland Turks and Kurds. www.devonscatering.co.uk

I express opinions since the only serious hobby I have is Politics.
The conclusions I have drawn are these.
1. Turkish Cypriots do not hate GCs
2. Turkish Cypriots are not that happy with Turkish settlers in Cyprus.
3. Turkish Cypriots are European in outlook and blend in with the natives.
4. Kurds and Mainland Turks are hard working family orientated people but do not really have that much in common with T/Cs.

[Viewpoint]

Suballstu , a very constructive post , your views are always well balanced and well thought out.
May I ask you if during the 60s and 70s when you say the Turkish Cypriots were living in enclaves , self created , were you in fact part of that your self or is it what Turkish Cypriot history has taught you. I remember visiting Ayios Loucas, Famagusta , in the latter 60s and early 70s (was even there in July of 1974 ) and what particularly amused me was the fact the Turkish Cypriots were closed in behind the walled city of Famagusta , but came out to the "Greek part" daily to go about their daily business. You must surely know that the Turkish Cypriot leadership at the time was not only encouraging the T/Cs but also dictating to them that all contacts with the G/Cs bust be severed. The enclaves were the creation of the T/Cs in order to promote their aim of creating a separate state , partition was the Turkish mainland plan going back many years. The Turkish Cypriots were manipulated by Turkey and the enclaves were not created in order to protect themselves from the G/Cs..

Utter rubbish and very insulting. you really need to talk to Turkish Cypriots who lived in those enclaves and why the as you say "chose" to live in squaller because Turkey manipulated them. You were why they were in those enclaves, stand up and accept the blame, dont try to lay the blame at someone elses door to relieve your own consiences.

[sadik]

Any TC that supports such a plan, in reality doesn't want a solution of the Cyprus problem!

The fact that we supported the A. plan, does not mean that it's the only plan that we would have accepted. In my previous post, I tried to show that Turkish Cypriots were supporting the previous versions of the plan, which were not so horrific for the GCs and it seemed acceptable to the majority of the GCs. If it was some other plan, we probably would have supported it. It was the only plan that was ever put on a referandum. Please explain why it makes us so evil that we accepted the only available solution plan.

[Kifeas]

The withdrawing of the T/Cs into enclaves was partly initiated because of the eruption of intercommunal fighting and violence in 1963/64, i.e. due to a real need to move into a safer place, and partly because it was the policy of the TMT to have the T/C community withdrawn into the enclaves.

Furthermore, and beyond the above, the maintenance of the enclaves and the (largely forceful) maintenance of the T/Cs into the enclaves after the period of unrest had ended, mainly after 1967, was solely due to the TMT and the TC leadership’s desires, for tactical and strategic reasons profoundly relating to the on-going Turkish and T/C plans for the eventual Turkish invasion and partition of Cyprus. Turkey and the then Turkish Cypriot leadership were continuously (day and night) plotting the Turkish invasion and partition, well before it occurred in 1974 (since 1963/64!) The T/C community was needed to facilitate the succesfull outcome of the invasion, whenever it would have finally occured, either directly or indirectly, and the best way to have done so was to have remained concentrated into the enclaves.

This is the only truth!

[Piratis]

Utter rubbish and very insulting. you really need to talk to Turkish Cypriots who lived in those enclaves and why the as you say "chose" to live in squaller because Turkey manipulated them. You were why they were in those enclaves, stand up and accept the blame, dont try to lay the blame at someone elses door to relieve your own consiences.

Not at all "utter rubbish". Simply the other part of the coin you choose to forget, trying to present the TCs as just the victims of the intercommunal conflict and the GCs as the only aggressors.

It is fact that both sides had about an equal amount of victims during that time and that going to those enclaves served TCs aim of partition. That is not to say that GCs are innocent, but please try for once to accept the part of the blame that goes for the TCs!

To get to the focus that Cyprus is for all Cypriots enjoying equal status that one day may come, but it is like stepping stones. If enough trust had been built up over the years after Annan then maybe the communities could have came together in the future it is something which we may never know.

Annan plan was a stepping stone for partition, as clearly explained by Serdar Denctash himself. How can something that puts the two sides into conflicting and antagonizing position be a stepping stone for anything good?

However forcing 2 parties together like an arranged marriage there is no guarantee that would work either.

The marriage existed since the 16th century when Turks came to Cyprus. Maybe you can call it "forced", but we were definitely not the ones who forced it. If TCs didn't like this marriage anymore that doesn't mean they can illegally grab our land and run away with it.
If they don't want to be in the marriage, then they can leave in the same way that they came. Insisting on illegalities will have consequences for them, and I hope they realized this because it is not something that will change.

[Kifeas]

Any TC that supports such a plan, in reality doesn't want a solution of the Cyprus problem!

The fact that we supported the A. plan, does not mean that it's the only plan that we would have accepted. In my previous post, I tried to show that Turkish Cypriots were supporting the previous versions of the plan, which were not so horrific for the GCs and it seemed acceptable to the majority of the GCs. If it was some other plan, we probably would have supported it. It was the only plan that was ever put on a referandum. Please explain why it makes us so evil that we accepted the only available solution plan.

Yes my friend, I fully undertand and appreciate what you are saying above. What I meant was, whoever continues to still support the plan, even today, after it was rejected, as the only acceptable solution of the Cyprus problem.

[Kifeas]

Any TC that supports such a plan, in reality doesn't want a solution of the Cyprus problem!

The fact that we supported the A. plan, does not mean that it's the only plan that we would have accepted. In my previous post, I tried to show that Turkish Cypriots were supporting the previous versions of the plan, which were not so horrific for the GCs and it seemed acceptable to the majority of the GCs. If it was some other plan, we probably would have supported it. It was the only plan that was ever put on a referandum. Please explain why it makes us so evil that we accepted the only available solution plan.

Yes my friend, I fully undertand and appreciate what you are saying above. What I meant was, whoever continues to still support the plan, even today, after it was rejected, as the only acceptable solution of the Cyprus problem.

I would also add that any GC who continues to regrad the A.plan as the only solution of the Cyprus problem, in reality doesn't want a solution, becasue there are also some G/Cs who still beilive that it was a good deal.

[stuballstu]

Kifeas wrote

Stuballstu and others, there is no point talking about the Annan plan any longer. The Annan plan was rejected and cannot be brought back, because it is completely unfair for the GC community, in all aspects and areas. The biggest problem with this plan is with its central philosophy.

Kifeas, with respect, what you may have failed to realise is that up to now the Annan plan was the best alternative to the solution of the Cyprus problem. What some people have failed to grasp is that the plan was not brought out of thin air but was put together after years of study on Cyprus and negotiated with TC's and GC's. Any future plan proposed by the UN and endorsed by the majority of the worlds community will more than likely be a revised what was known as the Annan plan. There will of course be differences to the original but dont expect many significant changes. What happens if either side votes no then? What happens permanent division only this time legalised?? Very icy, and thin icy, waters.


miltiades wrote

Suballstu , a very constructive post , your views are always well balanced and well thought out.
May I ask you if during the 60s and 70s when you say the Turkish Cypriots were living in enclaves , self created , were you in fact part of that your self or is it what Turkish Cypriot history has taught you. I remember visiting Ayios Loucas, Famagusta , in the latter 60s and early 70s (was even there in July of 1974 ) and what particularly amused me was the fact the Turkish Cypriots were closed in behind the walled city of Famagusta , but came out to the "Greek part" daily to go about their daily business. You must surely know that the Turkish Cypriot leadership at the time was not only encouraging the T/Cs but also dictating to them that all contacts with the G/Cs bust be severed. The enclaves were the creation of the T/Cs in order to promote their aim of creating a separate state , partition was the Turkish mainland plan going back many years. The Turkish Cypriots were manipulated by Turkey and the enclaves were not created in order to protect themselves from the G/Cs.
All this is now water under the bridge, the G/Cs wanted Enosis , at that time so did I. We have grown up now ,the majority of Cypriots have rejected Enosis , in fact I would hate the idea of the bloody Greeks running my country.
I wonder if you think the Turkish Cypriot aspirations have also changed, it would be interesting to hear your views.
As far as your statement concerning acceptance of the plan by most Nations , yes this is true , but it wasnt put to the world it was put to the natives of Cyprus . Rejection of the plan was in my mind the correct outcome for the future of Cyprus.The solution provided by the plan was unfair to a large majority of Cypriots and it would in time progress to communal strife leading to more instability .

Thanks miltiades for comments re my last post. It was quoted by most news agencies then and even now that TC's were forced into enclaves by the threat of Enosis. I wasnt there so i cant say for myself.

To tell you a bit about myself and how i come to my opinions.

We had an uncle who served with the UN in Cyprus I cant remember the exact dates, he told us some stories about Cyprus some very bad and some good, however not to bore you too much above all he raved about Cyprus natural beauty and the people, all over Cyprus.

This prompted a family holiday to Cyprus in actual fact a fishing village called Ayia Napa, me as a young scholar, and i remember my father taking me to Ledra Street and being able to look over to the "other side". As a youngster i was intrigued. At school we covered a part of "Modern day" history which included as it was termed "The Cyprus Conflict". From that day i have always took an interest in Cyprus. I have read most books, some of which i never got past the first few pages because of the crap in them, and took a shall we say a more than a passing interest in Cyprus and the ongoing issues on the Island.

With regards to the Annan plan, i hope maybe you will be proved right and there is a better solution for everyone, the sooner the better.

I agree with you that the present government of Cyprus should be doing far more to bring about fresh discussions leading to perhaps a re negotiated plan , or least be open in precisely what it wants T/Cs -Turkey to do.
You are no doubt a reasonable man and also a well educated one , you must I'm sure see that unless the overwhelming majority of Cypriots are at least 50% happy with a plan , it simply will not be accepted.
The arguments that many GCs put forward again and again is that since we are the 82% , and since this 82% consider Turkey to be occupying part of our island , we are most certainly not going to endorse this illegal occupation - remember the 82 % of Cypriots see this as occupation - by accepting the Annan plan that legalised Turkey's occupation of Cyprus.
I like to make one more point , this is based on my own observations here in London working in an environment where a large number of my customers are Turkish Cypriots , Mainland Turks and Kurds. www.devonscatering.co.uk

The present government can do more you are right on the money there. I am of the opinion that they have not done anything to solve the Cyprus problem and at the moment have no plans to either. Whatever settlement is proposed you can guarantee that not everyone will be pleased.

www.devonscatering.co.uk

Typical Cypriot, another plug for the company
very good i like it!!

I express opinions since the only serious hobby I have is Politics.
The conclusions I have drawn are these.
1. Turkish Cypriots do not hate GCs
2. Turkish Cypriots are not that happy with Turkish settlers in Cyprus.
3. Turkish Cypriots are European in outlook and blend in with the natives.
4. Kurds and Mainland Turks are hard working family orientated people but do not really have that much in common with T/Cs.

You are quite correct in you assesments. In fact maybe one of the TC's on this site might care to enlighten the others on what nickname is used for Turkish or Kurdish settlers. It used to be "Gadgy" which is a term used in the UK for a gypsy but they caught on to that one and there is another term used now. Even the Turkish language is different in Cyprus than it is in Turkey.

Miltiades for the most part i find your posts refreshingly honest, and even when standing corrected you have the ability to apologise. You are a true Cypriot gentleman in the best possible sense and i hope that you find the solution you are happy for. Good health to you and your family.

Piratis wrote

Quote:
However forcing 2 parties together like an arranged marriage there is no guarantee that would work either.


The marriage existed since the 16th century when Turks came to Cyprus. Maybe you can call it "forced", but we were definitely not the ones who forced it. If TCs didn't like this marriage anymore that doesn't mean they can illegally grab our land and run away with it.
If they don't want to be in the marriage, then they can leave in the same way that they came. Insisting on illegalities will have consequences for them, and I hope they realized this because it is not something that will change.

Piratis

i am of the opinion that only on rare occasions will i answer your posts as it is like reading the first few pages of some books (see above).

To answer what you wrote then in the 16th century how often was divorce?

What GC's tried to force was Enosis, was that divorce, marriage or having a widow?

TC's have never "grabbed" your land. I think you will find it is what Turkey called an intervention in 1974 which forced GC's and TC's (who were still there) to leave there land. TC's never stole anything, they certainly never stole Cyprus as they are legally part owners, did you forget that?

Piratis

Before you continue your progandic posts about refugees and human rights etc etc. Let me try to explain something to you. At times of war, in particular in 1974 in Cyprus, things were difficult. If Turkey had wanted to exterminate GC's like the Greek jaunta did and GC's were guilty of then now Cyprus would be a Turkish Island. I am not saying that you should be thankful of that but bare it in mind when you use the term "barbaric Turks".

Also during times of conflict land exchanges were common place. If you look at the borders of the world 100 years ago and look at them now you will see they are not the same. Cypriots at least have the right of restitution unlike the Poles, Czechs and some Germans had.

What i find ironic Piratis is that more than 50% of your posts contain "human rights" or "illegal". However at the same time you dont care that your fellow Cypriots living in the north can not trade with the outside world, receive exports unless via Turkey, cant dial there family in the UK unless it goes via Turkey, can not go to visit them unless it is via Turkey. You make no mention of this in you "Human Rights" posts.
Selfish, narrowminded, spring to mind but he ho have you ever thought that what you are looking for doesnt exist?

[miltiades]

Stuballstu , circumstances permitting , on my next visit to Cyprus , contrary to earlier stated principles regarding my reluctance to cross over the "other side " I will do so if only to bye you a drink!!
Ps .I hope you are not a teetotaler !!