Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint , can you please refer me to some independent sources of information to back up your claim that the T/Cs were forced by the G/Cs into their enclaves in order to avoid a massacre by the G/Cs. I know nothing about you but I can tell you the age group that you belong to . It is the age group that wasn't around in the 50s and 60s , or if it was it was too young to have known much. Let me guess that you are no more than 45 years old , and also I suggest that if I'm correct with your age I'm also correct in suggesting that the information available to you was handed down second hand. Those that lived during the 50s and 60s will readily admit that the victims were the Cypriots , not the G/Cs or T/Cs but all Cypriots who were indoctrinated by demagogues and nationalist bigots into believing that the other side was evil. What we should be concentrating on now is finding a solution that all Cypriots , or at least the majority are comfortable with. As fa as I'm concerned the past miseries are history , the future calls for one Cyprus and Turkey has no place occupying part of Cyprus. You can not possibly expect the Cypriots to just brush aside the 40000 Foreign Turkish troops and accept a plan that legitimises the events of 1974.

have you read the Genocide Files by Harry Scott Gibbons?

You are right in your assumption that I am under 45 but I have spoken to many older TCs who lived during those times and they confirm that their primary reason for living in squaller in enclaves was for fear of being killed by GCs. Why is this so diffcult to consume? discrimination and persecution against TCs was also common practice back then. Your so called "Cypriots" we not speaking up back then to promote Cypriotism and protect and share with TCs. We have to accept our failings of the past so that we may progess into the future. Denying them or stating they never occured and that we move into enclaves because we just seem to like the idea and it was in support of seperation and manipulated by Turkey is twisting the truth to sooth your own consensience for the wrong doings of the past.

[miltiades]

Absolute rubbish. I challenge you to question 12 only T/Cs over 60 and ask them .
Furthermore let me remind you that the people of Cyprus have for thousands of years lived peacefully with various invaders , and the Cypriots are not known worldwide as the monsters your trying to promote.
It is absolute garbage that the T/Cs lived in fear of the G/Cs. The extreme elements on both sides spread fear and panic amongst all Cypriots. It is indeed a flimsy excuse used by Turkey to justify the invasion of Cyprus. In 1974 I was a 28 year old on holiday in Famagusta when I got caught in the ensuing war. The only people who feared for their lives then it was people like myself who detested the the Greek junta and spoke openly against them. There was never any action against the T/Cs until Turkey invaded.
Viewpoint , the solution will come when , not as you put it , the G/Cs capitulate and accept " responsibility" , but when Turkey accepts that she is occupying a foreign country and recognises the consequences of her actions. I doubt very much that she will ever do so , but I m confident that my compatriots , including you , will eventually demand that all foreign troops depart from Cyprus. There is at the moment a misguided feeling amongst T/Cs that the International community as well as Europe are about to recognise the "TRNC" The USA has made it clear that recognition is not on the agenda . Not even the World Council of Muslim Nations has made any noises towards recognition , so we have to drop the partition idea and get back to negotiations leading to one united Cyprus.

[Kifeas]

Absolute rubbish. I challenge you to question 12 only T/Cs over 60 and ask them .
Furthermore let me remind you that the people of Cyprus have for thousands of years lived peacefully with various invaders , and the Cypriots are not known worldwide as the monsters your trying to promote.
It is absolute garbage that the T/Cs lived in fear of the G/Cs. The extreme elements on both sides spread fear and panic amongst all Cypriots. It is indeed a flimsy excuse used by Turkey to justify the invasion of Cyprus. In 1974 I was a 28 year old on holiday in Famagusta when I got caught in the ensuing war. The only people who feared for their lives then it was people like myself who detested the the Greek junta and spoke openly against them. There was never any action against the T/Cs until Turkey invaded.
Viewpoint , the solution will come when , not as you put it , the G/Cs capitulate and accept " responsibility" , but when Turkey accepts that she is occupying a foreign country and recognises the consequences of her actions. I doubt very much that she will ever do so , but I m confident that my compatriots , including you , will eventually demand that all foreign troops depart from Cyprus. There is at the moment a misguided feeling amongst T/Cs that the International community as well as Europe are about to recognise the "TRNC" The USA has made it clear that recognition is not on the agenda . Not even the World Council of Muslim Nations has made any noises towards recognition , so we have to drop the partition idea and get back to negotiations leading to one united Cyprus.

Miltiades, it is a fact that during the period that fighting erupted in 1963 /64, and especially after some gangs of fanatics from the G/C community attacked and committed atrocities against T/C civilians, there was indeed a wide spread and to a large extent a justified fear among the T/C community for their safety, something which compelled the majority of those living in the most venerable areas around Cyprus to move into safer areas, in which a bigger concentration of T/C population existed, as it was also "suggested" to them by TMT elements around Cyprus. This is how we have the appearance of enclaves.

This however was something their leadership and the TMT had also preferred as a development, because it allowed them to control the T/C community better and impose on it a military regime and a military service, which aimed to prepare the community for the upcoming and continuously planned Turkish invasion and partition that their leadership and many of them were longing. That is why even after events of violent behaviour against members of their community had completely ended, and even after 1967/68 when the RoC removed all checkpoints outside the enclaves, the TMT and the Turkish officers staffing all the high ranks of their army tried really hard to keep them concentrated in the enclaves and thus under their control, because this would facilitate the eventual Turkish landing and occupation an easier job. For example, the TC enclave north of Nicosia was of vital strategic importance and should have been kept in place with all means, because it was the only area, due to its size, in which Turkey could safely trop parachutists. Furthermore, the establishment and maintenance of several pockets (strongholds) of T/C troops and civilians under arms, all around Cyprus, would have helped dilute and weaken the National Guard in case of a Turkish invasion, because the later would have been required to keep almost half of its strength busy and away from the place of a Turkish landing.

In a sense, the intercommunal violence of 1963/64 served as the perfect “vaulting horse” for the T/C leadership to establish a set of several mini states within a state, through which it would have prepare and organise itself and the community for the next step which would have been the establishment of a larger and territorially unified state, once the Turkish invasion and occupation would have taken place. Therefore, the maintenance of the enclaves was of a major strategic importance for the plans of Turkey and the T/C leadership, and should have been kept intact by all means, even if that would have meant the complete deterioration of the economic status of the individual T/Cs. Turkey had plenty of money to send them and keep them alive, as it has also done after 1974, and still continues to be doing so, all in the name of the larger national goal which was to convert a place of Cyprus completely Turkish, for their own expansionist strategic objectives.

Unfortunately, the GC community committed critical mistakes in the past, mainly because of some fanatics in our side who worked for foreign interests and under foreign instructions, and offered all the right pre-texts and excuses for the Turkish plans to materialise to a very large extent. We allowed for them all the space they needed to manipulate and use the T/C community according to their amorous aims, and the very result is what we are faced with today.

[miltiades]

Kifeas , I never questioned the fact that inter communal fighting and killings took place during the start of EOKA B
in the early 60s . I'm fully conversant with the events that led to the enclaves creation .
The fanatics , mostly Greek "mainland " as well as Turkish nationalists were the main perpetrators responsible for the events that followed in 1974. The Turkish plans for the partition of Cyprus ware prepared long ago and demanded the creation of such enclaves , I only wish that our Turkish countrymen would examine this with out prejudice.

[miltiades]

Viewpoint , I wonder if you took thr trouble to read some of the reveiws written on the "GENICIDE FILES " By Harry Scott Gibons . Well here is one and I have another 56 to follow on this "brilliant Historian " I also have a lot more information on this person and would be pleased to provide. Please read below just one review.

Reviewer: A reader
I was in the U.N. medical corps in Cyprus from 1970-1975 and can still recall the terror that Turkish airforce jets brought on the civilian populations of Cyprus. We tended to the dead and wounded after the attack on the village of Episkopi where five innocent workers were killed with napalm dropped from the Turkish jets in 1964.
I feel this book does not give an impartial account and history of the problems in Cyprus and does a great disservice to the memory of the Greek and Turkish Cypriots who died on the island. It does not give a true account of the ethnic anatagonisms in Cyprus, as i remember it. The book gives 100% emphasis on the Greeks as the cause of the troubles but omits to mention the terrorist groups brought in from Turkey as far back as 1954 to instigate troubles between the two communities.
It singles out the Greek Cypriot community as committing genocide, when i remember a distinct clash of the Turkish and Greek communities insitgated by nationalist elements in their respective motherlands (Greece and Turkey). Acts of genocide did not take place as described in the book - we oversaw the treatment of wounded and dead from both the turkish and greek communities. Only when the Turkish Army invaded in 1974, did the nationalist elements on the greek side exact revenge on the Turkish civilian population as the Turkish army had been found raping and killing civilians of the Greek community. The inter-communal fighting was not even mentioned once in the book, which is remarkable for a supposed unabridged book about Cyprus.
Also, there are incredibly large amounts of grammatical errors and punctuation mistakes in the text which does not leave a good impression on the author and/or publisher. The mistakes would be excusable, were it not for the fact that the book contains a great number of mistakes in fact and falsifications of events. For example, the author states that the Greek armed forces were in control of 300 tanks at the time of the invasion and that the Turkish contingent were heavily outnumbered. In fact, we were stationed near the Greek base in Nicosia and the Greek Tank corps were quite proud of their 17 tanks of world war 2 vintage. They were the only tanks in Cyprus at any time before the 1974 invasion. This is just one example of how the author gives false information (without any reference or even an index) and tries to steer the reader in believing a totally false account of the events in Cyprus.
I don't know what the author's motives in this misrepresentation are, but some reviews here have suggested that he is under the employ of the Turkish government. Given this totally one-sided diatribe, bearing no resemblance to my own recollection of events, i cannot disagree with this assertion.
A truly awful book which sets out to give excuses for a brutal invasion.
It really is a shame that this book seems to have been written with one aim in mind - to falsify history and give a totally biased version of events in the hope of causing hatred instead of mending bridges between the Greeks and Turks of Cyprus. What a great opportunity lost......

[Kifeas]

Kifeas , I never questioned the fact that inter communal fighting and killings took place during the start of EOKA B
in the early 60s . I'm fully conversant with the events that led to the enclaves creation .
The fanatics , mostly Greek "mainland " as well as Turkish nationalists were the main perpetrators responsible for the events that followed in 1974. The Turkish plans for the partition of Cyprus ware prepared long ago and demanded the creation of such enclaves , I only wish that our Turkish countrymen would examine this with out prejudice.

Miltiades, Eoka B was created in 1970 by Grivas and its aim was assassinate Makarios for giving up on the Enosis goal, in the pursued of a more realistic solution. I agree with you about the Turkish partition plans.

[miltiades]

Kifeas thank you for the correction. I did in fact mean 70s

[miltiades]

Viewpoint , when I asked that you provide some independent sources of information to back up your argument I of course meant independent not Mr Gibbons version .The following review is rather interesting , do you not think so?
Your readers should be aware that the author of this book, Mr. Gibbons, is well-known only to Turkish Cypriots and mainland Turks. He is not considered a serious author in any other part of the world, including his native Britain. Since the 1970s he has been a well-paid propagandist for the Turkish Cypriot cause and his book is 95 percent fiction. These files that he claims to have found, and upon which he bases his book, never existed. They are akin to the "Hitler Diaries" of a few years ago. Except in Northern Cyprus and Turkey (and the Internet) you will not find his book for sale. It is common practice for Turkey to appropriate atrocity stories from other wars and other countries, change the names and locations, and claim them as their own. It is a shame that this packet of lies posing as a timely document is on the market and thus able to contribute to the further brainwashing of Turkish Cypriots and their supporters. There are many other fine books on the subject, esp. The Cyprus Conspiracy.

[Kifeas]

Viewpoint , when I asked that you provide some independent sources of information to back up your argument I of course meant independent not Mr Gibbons version .The following review is rather interesting , do you not think so?
Your readers should be aware that the author of this book, Mr. Gibbons, is well-known only to Turkish Cypriots and mainland Turks. He is not considered a serious author in any other part of the world, including his native Britain. Since the 1970s he has been a well-paid propagandist for the Turkish Cypriot cause and his book is 95 percent fiction. These files that he claims to have found, and upon which he bases his book, never existed. They are akin to the "Hitler Diaries" of a few years ago. Except in Northern Cyprus and Turkey (and the Internet) you will not find his book for sale. It is common practice for Turkey to appropriate atrocity stories from other wars and other countries, change the names and locations, and claim them as their own. It is a shame that this packet of lies posing as a timely document is on the market and thus able to contribute to the further brainwashing of Turkish Cypriots and their supporters. There are many other fine books on the subject, esp. The Cyprus Conspiracy.

Were do you get all these reviews from?

[Kikapu]

[Kikabu, there is no solution yet, becasue the leadership of your community and Turkey do not accept most of the above principles that Piratis wrote, and many more. You really have to look elsewere to find who is quilty that we do not have a solution, becasue it is really not the fault of the GC community or its leadership!

Forget the philosophy of the Annan plan, and the virgin births! There is not such a thing as a virgin birth!

Kifeas,

I some times do wonder if anyone is listening to anyone, whether it's the TC's or the GC's by their leaders. We have on this forum bunch of people made several suggestions, and I'm very sure there're a lot of, far smarter people on both sides, can and must have already figured out how to resolve the problems that exists today. So, where are the problems? If you're correct in what you're saying, that Turkey just wants to keep the part of Cyprus under occupation now, and I have made similar claims before, then I really do not know where we go from here, other than, for the GC's to make an offer which the TC's cannot refuse, which will also be a very hard pill for the GC's to swallow, which will go against their basic principles, and that would be to offer the TC's a 50-50 partnership in a new Republic of Cyprus.

If the TC's were to be offered that, and they were willing to accept it, and they really wanted to unite the island, it will only then be possible to get the 40,000 Turkish troops out, because the TC's will demand it, and by appealing to the international community, Turkey will not have a choice, but to remove her troops, much like what the Syrians did in Lebanon recently, after 30 years. This has been my answer to solve the problem, and I do understand why the GC's would want to say "hell no, not on your life, are you freeking crazy, must be a Turkish joke" and so on. If the invasion had occured a year or two ago, I would also say those things, but it has been 32 years, and there's no end in sight.

If the 50-50 offer was made to the TC's and they refused, then we'll for once and for all know, that the TC's would rather keep what they have now with the occupation in place for the unforeseeable future, than unite the island. The question is, what do you have to lose by making the proposal to the TC's on a 50-50 power sharing, and everyone goes to their homes, including the settlers and the troops. What would be the gamble, if the TC's said yes. So you would have a equal partner, even though they are only 20%, but you would get the 100% of the island back under Cypriot control. I don't know just how many people would be bothered by this arrangement versus the benefits of living their lives in a country that the people can say, "yes, I'm from Cyprus and I'm proud of it, when asked where we come from. Even the great democracy like the USA, 50% of the people never bother to vote. They are more consumed with their daily lives, by looking after their family. You'll be surprised, just how many American citizens can not name most of the major politicians in Bush's government after 5 years. It's a very BIG pill to swallow, but make the offer, even call their bluff, to find out where the future of Cyprus lies.

As a non believer, you don't need to convince me about "Virgin Birth". The only "virgin"(extra) I believe in, is a good Cypriot olive oil.