Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

[Kikapu]

When the concerns of a major part of the minorities are not addresses by the majority, given their past problems for the last 46 years, and all you want to say is, "just trust us" will be asking too much without substance.

Kikapu, I have said many times that the concerns of both TCs and GCs should be addressed to the highest degree possible. I completely agree with this. Were I disagree is that we should address the concerns of a group of people by violating the rights of others.

All concerns should be address within the principles of democracy and human rights. Human rights and democracy should be the lowest common denominator.

Also I never said that TCs should "just trust us". I talk about guaranteed representation at all levels of the government, about veto powers on some predefined important issues (e.g. modification of constitution) etc. Beyond that, if the solution will be a federal one, many things will fall in the jurisdiction of the federal government were the TCs (for the northern state) will be the majority.

In addition to all this I would be more than willing to discuss any other ways to address the concerns of both communities, as long as they are within the framework of democracy and human rights. Is what I tell you now "just trust us"?

You try every time to paint those who do not want majority rule as anti democracy and human rights violators, and racist discrminators. I'll also have to remind you each time that democracy comes in various packages.

Yes Kikapu, democracy comes in various packages, some of which are more democratic and some less. However the package that you want for Cyprus only existed in South Africa some years ago, and it really doesn't fall within the democratic "packages".
What I suggest to you, not only it is not "nationalistic" but it would give to the TC monitory more than any other minority in the whole world ever had. How more compromising than that would you want us to be?

Given the last 46 years of killings and torture and rapes, along with a invasion and occupation, which resulted in further seperation and isolation, which generated more mistrusts along with hate amongst some.

Yes, and I never said that this will change overnight. This is why I always propose defined transitional periods as part of the solution. On the other hand creating a racist and separatist constitution not only will not solve this problem but will make the mistrust and the conflicts even bigger.

Democracy is what the citizens of a nation agree to have rules that they want to live under, without having to worry whether their interest are being protected, no matter which group is in power.

Yes democracy should protect all citizens equally without racist or other discriminations. And having the above is a one-way road with no alternative. Not having democracy, or one group violating the human rights of another using mistrust as an excuse is not an option.

Piratis, I never asked you this question before, so this may be a good time to do so. Do you accept the 1960 constitution to be the "rule of the land" for Cyprus or not, or as far as you are concern, that document is also dead. If you do accept it, it also does not have a "true majority rule" system, so where do you stand on that.?

The 1960 agreements are there and they are the only legal thing that exists. In fact those agreements were very favorable for TCs.
However you can not say "we do not want to give up X because X was our right with the 1960 agreements" because if you do, then we will do the same.
Therefore we either go back to the 1960 agreements OR we make mutual compromises from those agreements without disturbing their balance and having one side receiving more and another less than what was agreed in 1960.
One example is that Cyprus becomes a federation (unlike 1960 agreements) with TCs the majority of one state. Therefore the TCs would get more power within that state and less power in the central government. To get something you have to give something (that you legally own). If you are not willing to give up anything then we will not either, and then the only alternative is the 1960 agreements, nothing less nothing more.

Therefore it is all about a matter of principle. Do you accept that as a principle the concerns of both communities should be address within the framework of democracy and human rights? If you do, and goodwill exists, then we can find ways to address the concerns of both communities and create the best possible solution that will include transitional periods that will gradually take us to the desired result.

If however you disagree in principle with what I say, then any discussions beyond that, or any negotiations, will be totally useless and fruitless. (like they have been so far)

Piratis, you either have to learn to speak Turkish, or else I need to learn to speak Greek, because we're having difficulty communicating in English. Almost of all the principles you wrote, I really do not have a problem with, and quite surprised a solution has not worked out yet. When I'm pushing the "NO" on the "majority rule" and the "one man one vote" system, I was always talking about having a fresh Constitution and under a Republic Cyprus and not what you have been talking about a Federation Cyprus, with 2 seperate States, each having their own Constitution and each State having their own majority, with a Central government, proportioned to the each States residents. I was hoping Cyprus could have a fresh start as a Republic, with no States, but instead, as it was before 1974. That's why I have been pushing the "equal representation" on a joint government because the TC's were never going to trust a 82%-18% type of a government in a Republic type of government, where the majority can and will abuse their power, it's human nature.

A Republic type of government would surely would allow all of the people from both sides to return to their homes without feeling out numbered, if not by population, but politically, because they would have faith in a jointly run government. If you on the other hand want to go the Federation route, then of course the rules have to be different. With the correct safeguard in place as an "unalterable provisions" in a new Constitutions, then the"one man one vote" and "majority rule" should be OK, providing, each State maintain their own National Guards Force for defence purposes, and can unite if it were needed to defend Cyprus from a foreign attack. But don't try the"majority rule" and "one man one vote" system, if you want a Rupublic Cyprus, because it will not be accepted by the TC's.

[miltiades]

Kikapu , here is one for you :
KIBRIS BUTUN KIBRISLILARA AITTIR.
Cyprus Belongs to All Cypriots
H KIPROS ANIKI SE OLOUS TOUS KIPRIOUS

[Kikapu]

Kikapu , here is one for you :
KIBRIS BUTUN KIBRISLILARA AITTIR.
Cyprus Belongs to All Cypriots
H KIPROS ANIKI SE OLOUS TOUS KIPRIOUS

Nice one Miltiades. You really do speak the "Cypriot Ligos' ".

[andri_cy]

I sure dont. I dont even know where to start to learn Turkish. lol

[andri_cy]

OOooooh catch me if you can I have one for you!!!!
Yurtta barıs, dunyada barıs

[Piratis]

Almost of all the principles you wrote, I really do not have a problem with, and quite surprised a solution has not worked out yet.

I am glad we can agree on the principles. If some people in Ankara can agree also then they might let Turkish Cypriots to negotiate with us within those principles and find a solution.

When I'm pushing the "NO" on the "majority rule" and the "one man one vote" system, I was always talking about having a fresh Constitution and under a Republic Cyprus and not what you have been talking about a Federation Cyprus, with 2 separate States, each having their own Constitution and each State having their own majority, with a Central government, proportioned to the each States residents. I was hoping Cyprus could have a fresh start as a Republic, with no States, but instead, as it was before 1974.

I must have missed some of your posts then since I didn't realize you were supporting a unitary state. I also support a unitary state and I believe is best. However I was given the impression that for TCs a solution based on federation is important, and I was therefore trying to find a way that such thing can be accomplished without violations to human and democratic rights and without one side winning over the other.
If we could agree on a unitary state then the power sharing can be different, with TCs having a lot more power in the "central" (=only) goverment. But do you think TCs would agree for such thing?

If you on the other hand want to go the Federation route, then of course the rules have to be different. With the correct safeguard in place as an "unalterable provisions" in a new Constitutions, then the"one man one vote" and "majority rule" should be OK, providing, each State maintain their own National Guards Force for defence purposes, and can unite if it were needed to defend Cyprus from a foreign attack.

Kikapu what I was talking about is a federation. Like the USA for example. Not separate countries. In the USA (and all federations) there is only one army, one citizenship etc. States have their own police, but there is also the central police (FBI) which in many cases is above the police of each state.
States can run their own police, education systems, state taxes etc (like it happens in the USA) but don't ask for things that are for separate countries like an army.

In any case Cyprus would probably be demilitarized after a solution, but I used this example to clear for you what federation really is, so not to have any kind of misunderstandings.

[Kikapu]

States can run their own police, education systems, state taxes etc (like it happens in the USA) but don't ask for things that are for separate countries like an army..

Just for the record Piratis, each individual States in the USA do have their own National Guard Force ( reserve army), that can be used for all purposes, from aiding natural disasters to controlling riots, to coming under the Federal Government to protect our borders or to be sent to Iraq.!

[Kifeas]

Piratis, you either have to learn to speak Turkish, or else I need to learn to speak Greek, because we're having difficulty communicating in English. Almost of all the principles you wrote, I really do not have a problem with, and quite surprised a solution has not worked out yet.

Kikabu, there is no solution yet, becasue the leadership of your community and Turkey do not accept most of the above principles that Piratis wrote, and many more. You really have to look elsewere to find who is quilty that we do not have a solution, becasue it is really not the fault of the GC community or its leadership! The Turkish and the TC leadesrhip, and a large section of the TC community want a solution that will be solulely on our expense! They want a solution that will convert them into the sole owners of the north 29% of our historical homeland, and equal partners of the rest!

They begin with the assumption that the illegal fait accomplices of 1974 and afterwards are not illegal but natural and legitimate instead, and they want the GC community and the international coommunity to legalise and solify them with our signature, under a disquised confederation of two separate and pre-existing legal nation /state entities in Cyprus. They exploit our foolish compromise of the past for a solution on te principle of bi-zonal and a bi-communal federation, and they try to push for their own illegitimate and unhistorical version of solution, that will conver the north of Cyprus into a place of Turkish ownership exclusivelly, so that the total of Cyprus becomes into a Turkish protectorate through the central government and through using the settlers as the vehicle.

If you seriously want a solution, you really need to shout to the leadership of your community and to the leadeship of the fascist /kemalist state that dictates her policy on them.

We have already made our compromises for a solution, and we have even exited all our red lines. There is nothing more left on which we can possibly compromise further. Even the fact that we have made a compromise on accepting a federation, is a huge and a previously completely unthinkable step for us! Your leadership did not yet meet us in taking such a huge compromising step, and therefore it always remains their turn. Forget the philosophy of the Annan plan, and the virgin births! There is not such a thing as a virgin birth!

[miltiades]

Viewpoint , can you please refer me to some independent sources of information to back up your claim that the T/Cs were forced by the G/Cs into their enclaves in order to avoid a massacre by the G/Cs. I know nothing about you but I can tell you the age group that you belong to . It is the age group that wasn't around in the 50s and 60s , or if it was it was too young to have known much. Let me guess that you are no more than 45 years old , and also I suggest that if I'm correct with your age I'm also correct in suggesting that the information available to you was handed down second hand. Those that lived during the 50s and 60s will readily admit that the victims were the Cypriots , not the G/Cs or T/Cs but all Cypriots who were indoctrinated by demagogues and nationalist bigots into believing that the other side was evil. What we should be concentrating on now is finding a solution that all Cypriots , or at least the majority are comfortable with. As fa as I'm concerned the past miseries are history , the future calls for one Cyprus and Turkey has no place occupying part of Cyprus. You can not possibly expect the Cypriots to just brush aside the 40000 Foreign Turkish troops and accept a plan that legitimises the events of 1974.