Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

You are unbelievable for using the word occupation in quotes denying the fact that Turkey is illegally occupying 1/3rd of our island.

Call it what you want does it change anything? the reality is there and will be until we can resolve our problems.

I hope stuballstu will not insist on keeping his eyes shut and he will see what is obvious - that most TCs are actively support the illegal occupation of Cyprus and the ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots.

Why do you think that is Piratis?? try reak hard and dont give me the land excuse. We TCs are willing to live in the north under isolation why? you tell me Im very interested to know if you have understood anything about TCs.

What "hellenistic attitudes" are you taking about? Democracy was indeed invented by Greeks, but asking for democracy in the 21st century is not a "hellenistic attitude". If you have some other ideology, like apartheid and discriminations based on race, then you are the one who needs to excuse yourself and not me.

For me the hellensitic attitude stem from using your numerical majority to creat a Greek Cypriot state with us as how do you say it just another minority. We are partners on this island the sooner you get to grips with this idea the better for everyone, otherwise if there no equal partnership we are not interested in being just another minority under GC administered Democracy and human rights.

We clearly said that TCs (just like GCs) should have their 100% of legal, human and democratic rights. But how can we move forward with these principles when TCs and Turkey reject them and they instead insist on partition and illegality?
Who fuel division are those that want division. And we all know very well who those are. Don't you think is time for TCs to abandon their partition dream and accept to be equal citizens of on united Cyprus, instead of insisting on racist discrimination?

When did we reject them? What has your administration done after rejecting the only plan that was put before us, a big fat NOTHING...but obviously you are happy with this has you have agained backed this stance and the fruits it bears which are rotten.

Do you know how to get us to dissolve the TRNC? put before us a plan that will address all our fears and concerns in a united Cyprus, please refrain froom saying we dont want democracy and human rights for all, sharing does not mean we have disregard these values. If you achieve such a balance only then you will see what the TCs want but your administration are incapable of creating such momentum or solution as they have other agendas, they are the recognized part of Cyprus and your leader stated he cannot take charge of a Republic and hand back a GC state in a united Cyprus. This tells you a great deal about where you are going and thats stalemate and sustained division.

Where is the road map what have you put forward? to get to where you want to go, talk is cheap.

What we want - democracy, human rights for all, no racist discriminations, legality - has been rejected by Turkey and TCs 100s of times. Have you now changed your mind?

This is what we all want but how do we get there taking into account both communites concerns thats the trick just chanting human rights and democracy is not enough, actions which the GCs lack talk much louder than words.

[Kikapu]

Will you all please stop using Turkeys example as to how they run their country. Why can't you people stay with the topic, and that is, it is the Turkish Cypriots that does not want to be ruled by a majority Greek cypriots, because past experience tells them, that they do not have faith in their being fair, to look after the interest of the TC's. After all, neither did the international community trusted the Greek Cypriot majority, as can be seen in the Annan Plan. Piratis needs to stop pushing his and his presidents wishes to rule the Turkish Cypriots. The burden is on them to make the TC's feel safe and secure, and fair play by the future government, and quite frankly, they have not convinced me yet that they can do that, and I don't even live in Cyprus, so I really don't expect those do live there to roll out the red carpet for the majority rule system any time soon. For cry'n out loud GC's, start thinking out side of the box for a change, and look for other possibilities to get the two sides together, other wise, you will have a majority rule, only one for each side after the country splits into two. Then it will be too late to think out side the box, instead, you'll be living it.

[Viewpoint]

Well said Kikapu, I live here on the island and can say you are 100% right. The GCs only talk they do nothing to gain the trust or work with the TCs to show them they can be trusted and that the future is better united rather than divided. I still feel they are incapable to do this as they have no desire to do so, they feel the EU leverage game will bring to them a GC run Cyprus with TCs as just another minority.

[Kikapu]

Well said Kikapu, I live here on the island and can say you are 100% right. The GCs only talk they do nothing to gain the trust or work with the TCs to show them they can be trusted and that the future is better united rather than divided. I still feel they are incapable to do this as they have no desire to do so, they feel the EU leverage game will bring to them a GC run Cyprus with TCs as just another minority.

This only creates more suspicion as to what the GC's majority will do with the power in their hands. Makarios was building his own private army which he used against the TC's in 1963 and on. What is PappaD is up to.? Please GC's, I'm not pointing the finger at you, unless you're thinking the way Piratis, Kifeas, Soto, and so on, is thinking the same way, that unless the TC's accept to be a minority group, there will not be a settlement. I'm sorry, but my life is more important than your majority rule system. If you can't show me how I can trust your handling of the government, then the hell with your majority rule system. Democracy does not come in one size only, but in many ways. But the "Nationalist" do not want anything but a majority rule. I wonder what they have up their sleeves.???

[Piratis]

Quote:
You are unbelievable for using the word occupation in quotes denying the fact that Turkey is illegally occupying 1/3rd of our island.



Call it what you want does it change anything? the reality is there and will be until we can resolve our problems.

It changes everything. One thing is if the TCs are against the Turkish occupation and illegalities and everything is forced against their will be Turkey, and a totally different thing is TCs being collaborators in the crime that continues to be committed against us for the last 32 years. Unfortunately the reality is much closer to the second than the first.

Why do you think that is Piratis?? try reak hard and dont give me the land excuse. We TCs are willing to live in the north under isolation why? you tell me Im very interested to know if you have understood anything about TCs.

Go ask your leaders why. They were the ones talking about particion decades before 1974. Kucuk has even prepared a map showing a divided Cyprus back in 1958.
If you ask me why, I would say that it is because the 18% minority grabbed the 36% (double) of the land. If you had gotten only the 9% then we would see if you would be trying to find excuses for the partition.

For me the hellensitic attitude stem from using your numerical majority to creat a Greek Cypriot state with us as how do you say it just another minority. We are partners on this island the sooner you get to grips with this idea the better for everyone, otherwise if there no equal partnership we are not interested in being just another minority under GC administered Democracy and human rights.

Cyprus has 82% Greek Cypriot population. This is a fact. Maybe you should tell your "motherland" next time along with the ethnic cleansing to perform one of their usual genocides so GCs will stop being the majority in Cyprus.
For me all Cypriots should be equal without racist discriminations, and Cyprus should be administered equally by all its citizens like it happens in all countries of the world. Only in south Africa with apartheid existed what you demand for Cyprus, were the citizens were not equal but separated based on their race.

When did we reject them?

Every day for the last 32 years by insisting on the illegal occupation of Cyprus.

Do you know how to get us to dissolve the TRNC? put before us a plan that will address all our fears and concerns in a united Cyprus

Sure viewpoint. Lets make a plan that will address all your fears and concerns, while at the same time violating the human and democratic rights of GCs (I am not even talking about the GCs fears and concerns). How do you expect us to create a plan when you have such an arrogant position?

I asked you many times if you would accept to address the fears and concerns of both communities within the principles of human rights and democracy and based on the EU principles.
However you want to address your fears and concerns by violating our human and democratic rights!!

Where is the road map what have you put forward? to get to where you want to go, talk is cheap.

When you reject the "where we want to go" which is a united Cyprus were all citizens are equal without racist discriminations, then what are you going to do with the road map?? You don't even accept to go there in the first place!

Quote:
What we want - democracy, human rights for all, no racist discrimination, legality - has been rejected by Turkey and TCs 100s of times. Have you now changed your mind?


This is what we all want but how do we get there taking into account both communities concerns thats the trick just chanting human rights and democracy is not enough, actions which the GCs lack talk much louder than words.

Is this really what you want? Here is a threat I wrote some time ago:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5865

Go re-read it because I can't bother to go all over the same discussion with you to come again to the same conclusion: That in fact you want separation based on race, and a separate part of Cyprus to by Turkish in one way or another.

[Piratis]

But the "Nationalist" do not want anything but a majority rule. I wonder what they have up their sleeves.???

So who wants democracy and human rights are "nationalists" now?

And what do you call those that support human rights violaitons, ethnic cleanisng, and racist descriminations then?

It is amazing that for you anybody that asks for democracy should do so because he has something "up his sleevs"!! What will we hear next I wonder.

[miltiades]

Kikapu , Viewpoint , you are referring to the fact that the T/Cs do not trust the GCs to look after their safety in a united Cyprus where the majority rules. I'm not certain if figures are available showing the number of ethnic killings during the 60s and early 70s. You must take into account the circumstances of that period that created division and hatred. You must also accept that the Turkish leadership of the time was hell bent on partition. You must also consider that the murders were committed by both sides , indoctrinated by nationalistic tendencies which is the only reason that Cyprus is today partly occupied. I posted earlier that as far as I believe the majority / minority issue should not be the be all and end all in finding a solution. But it is nevertheless a reality that the GCs are the vast majority and until we reach the stage that multi ethnic Cypriot political parties are formed and functioning effectively , the majority /minority issue will play a prominent role unfortunately use the word unfortunately because I believe that in Cyprus all Cypriots belong to the majority .
Please also take into account that for generations the Cypriots lived and interacted peacefully with each other , earlier I mentioned that as a child I spent two years in the Limasol Orphanage 1953-1955 and happily shared dormitories , dining tables , games etc with the Turkish boys and girls who also were there at the time. Basically very little separates the Cypriots , one is Religion , not that prominent on either side , and of course the major culprit the "motherland" issue . Neither side wants to see a repeat of past atrocities , so I believe that the arguments put forward by TCs that their safety would be at risk - and you mentioned private armies -
are quite empty in substance when you look at the world as it is today , more so with Cyprus as a member of the EU . There are thousands upon thousands of GCs who share my views , and equally TCs who might not agree with all I say but respect my love for Cyprus.

[Kikapu]

But the "Nationalist" do not want anything but a majority rule. I wonder what they have up their sleeves.???

So who wants democracy and human rights are "nationalists" now?.

When the concerns of a major part of the minorities are not addresses by the majority, given their past problems for the last 46 years, and all you want to say is, "just trust us" will be asking too much without substance. I don't blame you for what you're asking, and if the rolls were reversed, I'm sure the TC's would be asking the minority GC's also to "just trust us", and without giving you anything to resolve your concerns, you will also be running for cover.

You try every time to paint those who do not want majority rule as anti democracy and human rights violators, and racist discrminators. I'll also have to remind you each time that democracy comes in various packages. Given the last 46 years of killings and torture and rapes, along with a invasion and occupation, which resulted in further seperation and isolation, which generated more mistrusts along with hate amongst some. Democracy is what the citizens of a nation agree to have rules that they want to live under, without having to worry whether their intrest are being protected, no matter which group is in power.

Piratis, I never asked you this question before, so this may be a good time to do so. Do you accept the 1960 constitution to be the "rule of the land" for Cyprus or not, or as far as you are concern, that document is also dead. If you do accept it, it also does not have a "true majority rule" system, so where do you stand on that.? The problem is, I don't even think the TC's would want to work with the 1960 constitution any more, given what has happened since. Looking back, perhaps had that document was not stepped on, today we would not have each side wanting more than it can be agreed on. So, you see Piratis, just saying I want, I want, I want, majority rule because I believe in justice for all, it's not the answer to all those who have concerns. As you have said before, that the Annan Plan had hundreds of pages to cover all the concers for both the TC's and the GC's to be addressed, because if it was that simple, he would have had just one page Annan Plan, just reading "MAJORITY RULE" for Cyprus, and that would have been the end of it.

[Piratis]

When the concerns of a major part of the minorities are not addresses by the majority, given their past problems for the last 46 years, and all you want to say is, "just trust us" will be asking too much without substance.

Kikapu, I have said many times that the concerns of both TCs and GCs should be addressed to the highest degree possible. I completely agree with this. Were I disagree is that we should address the concerns of a group of people by violating the rights of others.

All concerns should be address within the principles of democracy and human rights. Human rights and democracy should be the lowest common denominator.

Also I never said that TCs should "just trust us". I talk about guaranteed representation at all levels of the government, about veto powers on some predefined important issues (e.g. modification of constitution) etc. Beyond that, if the solution will be a federal one, many things will fall in the jurisdiction of the federal government were the TCs (for the northern state) will be the majority.

In addition to all this I would be more than willing to discuss any other ways to address the concerns of both communities, as long as they are within the framework of democracy and human rights. Is what I tell you now "just trust us"?

You try every time to paint those who do not want majority rule as anti democracy and human rights violators, and racist discrminators. I'll also have to remind you each time that democracy comes in various packages.

Yes Kikapu, democracy comes in various packages, some of which are more democratic and some less. However the package that you want for Cyprus only existed in South Africa some years ago, and it really doesn't fall within the democratic "packages".
What I suggest to you, not only it is not "nationalistic" but it would give to the TC monitory more than any other minority in the whole world ever had. How more compromising than that would you want us to be?

Given the last 46 years of killings and torture and rapes, along with a invasion and occupation, which resulted in further seperation and isolation, which generated more mistrusts along with hate amongst some.

Yes, and I never said that this will change. This is why I always propose defined transitional periods as part of the solution. On the other hand creating a racist and separatist constitution not only will not solve this problem but will make the mistrust and the conflicts even bigger.

Democracy is what the citizens of a nation agree to have rules that they want to live under, without having to worry whether their interest are being protected, no matter which group is in power.

Yes democracy should protect all citizens equally without racist or other discriminations. And having the above is a one-way road with no alternative. Not having democracy, or one group violating the human rights of another using mistrust as an excuse is not an option.

Piratis, I never asked you this question before, so this may be a good time to do so. Do you accept the 1960 constitution to be the "rule of the land" for Cyprus or not, or as far as you are concern, that document is also dead. If you do accept it, it also does not have a "true majority rule" system, so where do you stand on that.?

The 1960 agreements are there and they are the only legal thing that exists. In fact those agreements were very favorable for TCs.
However you can not say "we do not want to give up X because X was our right with the 1960 agreements" because if you do, then we will do the same.
Therefore we either go back to the 1960 agreements OR we make mutual compromises from those agreements without disturbing their balance and having one side receiving more and another less than what was agreed in 1960.
One example is that Cyprus becomes a federation (unlike 1960 agreements) with TCs the majority of one state. Therefore the TCs would get more power within that state and less power in the central government. To get something you have to give something (that you legally own). If you are not willing to give up anything then we will not either, and then the only alternative is the 1960 agreements, nothing less nothing more.

Therefore it is all about a matter of principle. Do you accept that as a principle the concerns of both communities should be address within the framework of democracy and human rights? If you do, and goodwill exists, then we can find ways to address the concerns of both communities and create the best possible solution that will include transitional periods that will gradually take us to the desired result.

If however you disagree in principle with what I say, then any discussions beyond that, or any negotiations, will be totally useless and fruitless. (like they have been so far)

[Piratis]

When the concerns of a major part of the minorities are not addresses by the majority, given their past problems for the last 46 years, and all you want to say is, "just trust us" will be asking too much without substance.

Kikapu, I have said many times that the concerns of both TCs and GCs should be addressed to the highest degree possible. I completely agree with this. Were I disagree is that we should address the concerns of a group of people by violating the rights of others.

All concerns should be address within the principles of democracy and human rights. Human rights and democracy should be the lowest common denominator.

Also I never said that TCs should "just trust us". I talk about guaranteed representation at all levels of the government, about veto powers on some predefined important issues (e.g. modification of constitution) etc. Beyond that, if the solution will be a federal one, many things will fall in the jurisdiction of the federal government were the TCs (for the northern state) will be the majority.

In addition to all this I would be more than willing to discuss any other ways to address the concerns of both communities, as long as they are within the framework of democracy and human rights. Is what I tell you now "just trust us"?

You try every time to paint those who do not want majority rule as anti democracy and human rights violators, and racist discrminators. I'll also have to remind you each time that democracy comes in various packages.

Yes Kikapu, democracy comes in various packages, some of which are more democratic and some less. However the package that you want for Cyprus only existed in South Africa some years ago, and it really doesn't fall within the democratic "packages".
What I suggest to you, not only it is not "nationalistic" but it would give to the TC monitory more than any other minority in the whole world ever had. How more compromising than that would you want us to be?

Given the last 46 years of killings and torture and rapes, along with a invasion and occupation, which resulted in further seperation and isolation, which generated more mistrusts along with hate amongst some.

Yes, and I never said that this will change overnight. This is why I always propose defined transitional periods as part of the solution. On the other hand creating a racist and separatist constitution not only will not solve this problem but will make the mistrust and the conflicts even bigger.

Democracy is what the citizens of a nation agree to have rules that they want to live under, without having to worry whether their interest are being protected, no matter which group is in power.

Yes democracy should protect all citizens equally without racist or other discriminations. And having the above is a one-way road with no alternative. Not having democracy, or one group violating the human rights of another using mistrust as an excuse is not an option.

Piratis, I never asked you this question before, so this may be a good time to do so. Do you accept the 1960 constitution to be the "rule of the land" for Cyprus or not, or as far as you are concern, that document is also dead. If you do accept it, it also does not have a "true majority rule" system, so where do you stand on that.?

The 1960 agreements are there and they are the only legal thing that exists. In fact those agreements were very favorable for TCs.
However you can not say "we do not want to give up X because X was our right with the 1960 agreements" because if you do, then we will do the same.
Therefore we either go back to the 1960 agreements OR we make mutual compromises from those agreements without disturbing their balance and having one side receiving more and another less than what was agreed in 1960.
One example is that Cyprus becomes a federation (unlike 1960 agreements) with TCs the majority of one state. Therefore the TCs would get more power within that state and less power in the central government. To get something you have to give something (that you legally own). If you are not willing to give up anything then we will not either, and then the only alternative is the 1960 agreements, nothing less nothing more.

Therefore it is all about a matter of principle. Do you accept that as a principle the concerns of both communities should be address within the framework of democracy and human rights? If you do, and goodwill exists, then we can find ways to address the concerns of both communities and create the best possible solution that will include transitional periods that will gradually take us to the desired result.

If however you disagree in principle with what I say, then any discussions beyond that, or any negotiations, will be totally useless and fruitless. (like they have been so far)