Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Othelle, be warned! Someone has left the door of the loony house unlocked.

[brother]

whats that about bananiot

[-mikkie2-]

Bananiot is again resorting to personal slurs, that is what is going on brother.

Bananiot, why don't you show any respect to debaters in this forum? MicAtCyp, probably myself and others don't agree with you, but that is no reason for you to slur people.

[erolz]

Which brings us to the next point: Erol, I already have my study as a pdf file (it is about 7MB), where would you like me to e-mail it to so that you can upload it?

Thankfully in pdf format the file was much smaller (~ 1/2meg) and can be found here

http://www.visionmatters.co.uk/GCandUNPlan.pdf

[erolz]

Thanks Alexandros for making this report available.

I have only briefly scanned the document so far but I do have a question / request.

Could you provide the absolute response numbers for the 'cluster analysis' questions? (or if they are already in the report and I have missed them point them out to me). That is how many of the 1000 sample answered either 1,2,3,4 and 5 for each of the four questions asked. If we could have the results by age group as well that would be most welcome.

[Bananiot]

I was merely responding to b_anan_iot someone called me.

"Bananiot is again resorting to personal slurs, that is what is going on brother".

So mikkie, you expect me to take everything on the chin and you do not see any slur directed at me.That is mighty fine from you!

"Bananiot, why don't you show any respect to debaters in this forum? MicAtCyp, probably myself and others don't agree with you, but that is no reason for you to slur people".

So, mikkie, you are accusing me now for trying to defend my dignity. This makes you very biased, just because we differ on a few things. I was called many things, traitor, drone, others were called crooks, but mikkie thought it is ok, he did not see anything to complain about.

[-mikkie2-]

Alex

Maybe in thirty years from now, the issue of whether Cyprus should change to become a regular Federation (as opposed to an A-Plan Federation), might be put on separate referenda

That presupposes that the GC's and TC's make a decision that will,

A. Be acceptable to the guarantor powers
B. That it doesn't fall foul of EU law
C. That the UN Security Council will validate any such vote

To offset the deadlocks that such a system could potentially cause, we have the provision for three international judges on the Supreme Court, who will step in if necessary and adjudicate according to the Constitution...

That assumes that the judges will not be biased in any way. Who decides who they are? Who appoints them? It also means that we are a relegated to a 2nd class state incapable of running our own afairs.

The world now is a different place. Cyprus inside the EU brings a whole new dimension to the governance of a country. We have to uphold the law and we have to play by rules clearly laid down. An example I can give is the recent case of Arif Mustafa who took the Cyprus government to court regarding his property and the court ruled in his favour. Granted, the case is still pending, but doesn't that show that rule of law prevails over what a government may decide?

This kind of thing will force proper governance because governments can be held accountable. I would suggest that enshrining the independence of the judical bodies from government in any future contitution will go a very long way to alleying the fears that majority rule at the federal level could somehow be manipulated to favour one community over the other.

I also believe that ensuring that economic integration of the two communities will also add a further barrier to favouring one community over the other. That makes it difficult to enact laws which would favour one community over the other.

These two aspects are overlooked in the A plan as the judicial and economic bodies are largely separate. Working on these two aspects will provide the means to place checks and balances in the system that would be difficult if not almost impossible to usurp.

[MicAtCyp]

Alexandre
This is another post I prepared, dont know if you already gave the answers as I did not yet read the forum.
Talk later OK?
****************************************

The study does confirm the importance of Property Rights, which is extremely important to a large majority of Greek Cypriots, however not quite as important to as many people as Troops Withdrawal and Settlers.

Alexandre this was the basis of my original critisism remember? In my opinion the property issue is the number one issue at least as far as the refugees are concerned. Perhaps your study should point out this more clearly by presenting the results about this issue on refugee Vs non refugee sub groups. We all know that 60% of the GCs are not refugees and obviously the property issue might come second or third in their minds, but at the same time don't forget the momentum an unfair settlement on the property issue, can create among non refugees as well.

For your information I am not a refugee, but in case I see the property rights of refugees been sacrificed, no matter how good the solution might be on other issues, I will reject it immediately.

Another important information I would like to see is how many people consider ALL 3 issues i.e property, settlers, and troops (and perhaps other issues) as an integrated package. Splitting the total percentage of these 3 issues might be correct statistically, but lead to false conclussions if the factor of inter-relevance is neglected. If for example 40% of the people consider the matter of settlers and troops as their number one priority, a complete satisfaction on these 2 issues alone, might only result to just 5% up to the Anan Plan, in case the property issue is totally ignored. The degree of inter-relation of these issues (and many other issues) is important!

In your major conclusion you stated that "Greek Cypriots do not in their majority demand such improvements as would negate the political equality and bizonality of the solution." In my opinion your conclussion errs to the fact that the average people don't really understand the what implications bizonality has, unless they see its effects to other more "touchable" issues like the effect on their properties and right to return. So they may not reject bizonality directly, but they do reject its effects to issues of their direct concern that bizonality has.

I am glad to see that later on you clarified the issue of properties, and I would completely agree with what you said, if the words "greater" and "more fully" were changed to 100% i.e

Having said that, a solution that does not pay greater respect to Property rights would not pass the 50% Yes mark - in fact, it would not even pass the 40% Yes mark. My figure of 65% Yes, is only in the case where Property Rights are more fully respected (and also if the Economy is made more functional).

The question is, can this be confirmed scientifically from your poll, or is it a personal opinion?

I havent seen a single hint in your study regarding the British bases and the donation of sea shell rights to the British. Do the people realise that this means an equal share of our south sea Oil reserves with the British? Of course I understand that those who manufactured the Anan Plan paid very special attention to make it stink on so many important issues that the matter of creating a 3rd state within a state would never be the number one priority. When you suffer from cancer, pneumonia, and aids what’s the point of worrying about staying paralysed from your broken back, right?
May I ask however why this matter was not touched at all in your study?

Like I said I am waiting for your complete data, to be able to comment more precisely.

[MicAtCyp]

It should require acceptance from the TC side that on some issues they will be subject to a GC numerical majority and an acceptance from GC that on some issues they will subject to a TC communites equality. That is the compromise.

I totally agree with you Erol. I understand your concern that most propably a lot of GCs and a lot of TCs currently cannot digest this compromise. However I don't think "these many" are the majority. And this makes me optimistic, that in the end, not only there will not be an effort to overthrow this compromise, but people will understand that this compromise brings interesting pleasure, and no trouble at all in their lives.

The problem I see however is not that. I ‘m sorry to repeat it once more, but the position of your leadership regarding the issue of equality is not the same as yours.*

Can any GC on this forum state that they accept that the TC community SHOULD have a RIGHT to a status greater than that of just a minority and that such recognition is fair and just? I am beginning to wonder.

I consider this as kind of "insult" against me Erol, because, if you remember we agreed on your view in the past. Remember you also sugested to apply as a unified Cypriot people to the UN after it is apllied and proved successful, and I didn't object to that, I even tried to discuss and search the possibilities of how to do that.

I always however said and repeat it again, and again, and again. Look there *

[erolz]

And this makes me optimistic, that in the end, not only there will not be an effort to overthrow this compromise, but people will understand that this compromise brings interesting pleasure, and no trouble at all in their lives.

I sincerely hope you are right but still fear the consequences (for all) if you are not.

I ‘m sorry to repeat it once more, but the position of your leadership regarding the issue of equality is not the same as yours.*

Undoubtedly so.

I consider this as kind of "insult" against me Erol, because, if you remember we agreed on your view in the past.

I appologise for any offence I may have caused. It was not my intent.

Remember you also sugested to apply as a unified Cypriot people to the UN after it is apllied and proved successful, and I didn't object to that, I even tried to discuss and search the possibilities of how to do that.

Actualy from memory what I suggested was that perhaps what was necessary was a formal defintion in the various UN human rights charters that deal with groups / peoples (not indivduals) that formalised a status for a group of people that was greater than that of minority and less than the full rights they grant to a 'people'. I made this suggestion in an attempt to get over the deadlock I seemed to be in with Piratis at the time which was centered around these human rights declarations, whereby he wanted TC to have a status of minority but agreed to 'grant' TC some extra 'gifts' on top and I responded that if we are to have more rights than a minority we should be recognised as more than a minority (and yet formal recognition of our status as a 'people' was also 'too much' for it would give us a RIGHT to totoal unfettered self determination and thus partition). So in this situation it occured to me that if there was a formal status in these documents that recognised a status and rights greater than those of a minority but also less than tose of a people this might help us in Cyprus agree a basis for the two communites status' that was also recognised 'internationaly' as well. I also think that such a 'middle ground' status for peoples / groups could be helpful in any number of situations around the world (from kurds to basques to tmail tigers).