Cyprus-Forum.com

[andri_cy]

No matter how you look at it there has been an exchange of populations and its going to be nearly impossible to reverse this. This by the way is nothing new-there have been huge population exchanges in the past between Turkey and Greece-I read a recent novel (Birds Without Wings by Louis De Bernieres) which is set in background of the Greco-Turkish War of the 1920's when Greece invaded Anatolian Turkey. There really only remains for the financial accounts to be setted as it were. I know that many on both sides would wish that it were not so and that we could return to were we were in the past but its not going to happen anytime soon.
Militiades-No I dont hate GC's at all but unfortunately some of them hate me enough to put that little seed of doubt in my mind that I could not go and live in South Cyprus amongst them-Thats all I am saying. I am happy enough to have them as neighbours in London but I wouldnt entrust my security to the GC state anymore than GC's would feel safe with the Turkish Army. Sad but true.

Issy how were you made to feel that you couldnt move to the south and by whom?

[miltiades]

issy1956 , the ROC takes care of all its citizens as it is its duty to do so. There are thousands of Turkish Cypriots that either work or take advantage of the health service and other services in the republic.
The difference here is the absence of an occupying army that is very much evident in the occupied part.
I trust the Turkish Cypriots 110 % , there are the hot heads that exist in both communities but on the whole the vast majority are Cypriot friendly have expressed views that have attracted calls of" traitor " from the Greek side , and also by referring to the occupation army as such , have received comments such as " another Greek " from Turkish Cypriots . I call a spate precisely that , I do not mince my words and where stubbornness goes hand in hand with shortsightedness and stupidity then I'm critical .
There are in both communities people with hatred in their hearts , you generally find such people have so much in common. Here is a list of some of the areas where these extremists share a ground:
1. Nationalist pride directed towards the two main culprits , the perceived motherlands.
2. Mostly religious.
3. Intense hatred for the USA , Britain and the Western world.
4. Buried well in the past, cant let go.
5. Selfish by only thinking of today and their own personal circumstances , with out considering the future generations of Cypriots to come.
6. Believe all the propaganda they read or hear from their peers.

I have not visited the occupied areas for one reason only.I refuse to show my passport to a foreign power in my country.

[Issy1956]

Miltiades,
I have to disagree with you slightly on this my friend. The ROC ,although it purports to represent all Cypriots, as it stands is purely GC run and led. There is not a single TC in the ROC government-although it is recognised internationally-as far as the TC's are concerned it is an administration run by and on behalf of the GC community-nothing else. Mr Papa is not my president and does not speak for me. No matter how many TC's work in the south or get healthcare this does not make the ROC their government -this is driven by economic hardship and is not a vote of confidence in the ROC government. You say the ROC takes care of all its citizens but I as a TC cannot sell or transfer land that I own in the ROC without special permission from the minister of the interior whereas my GC neighbour can. Yes I know that if I applied they would have to grant it to me but the fact that I am treated differently shows that we are not equal. It would help if the ROC accepted that in its present form that it does not represent the TC's and actually talked to the TC community leaders about integrating them into the ROC on a basis acceptable to all. I for one would accept representation according to our numbers with safeguards. No one is looking for special treatment here just to safeguard our rights so we dont return to the mistakes of the past. But the ROC does not represent us to any extent and until the "Greek Cypriot Administration" is replaced with a truly representative "Cypriot" goverment the present stalemate will continue.

[miltiades]

issy , I have always posted that the day Cyprus elects a party in power that is made up of all Cypriot communities , will be the beginning of a long and lasting peace in Cyprus. You say that in order to sell your land in the ROC you need special permission , come now Issy , the Greeks can not sell their land with or without permission , so there is a distinct difference here. The ROC , is Greek administered but it does represent all Cypriots. You can obtain a Cypriot passport . The ROC has never denied you the right to be a Cypriot , what is objecting to is the partition and the creation of a separate state in Cyprus. I would have no problem if a Turkish Cypriot was the leader of a party that gained power and this leader became the President of the ROC.
I DO OBJECT HOWEVER TO A FOREIGN POWER CONTROLLING THE DESTINY OF MY NATION.

[Alexis]

Miltiades,
I have to disagree with you slightly on this my friend. The ROC ,although it purports to represent all Cypriots, as it stands is purely GC run and led. There is not a single TC in the ROC government-although it is recognised internationally-as far as the TC's are concerned it is an administration run by and on behalf of the GC community-nothing else. Mr Papa is not my president and does not speak for me. No matter how many TC's work in the south or get healthcare this does not make the ROC their government -this is driven by economic hardship and is not a vote of confidence in the ROC government. You say the ROC takes care of all its citizens but I as a TC cannot sell or transfer land that I own in the ROC without special permission from the minister of the interior whereas my GC neighbour can. Yes I know that if I applied they would have to grant it to me but the fact that I am treated differently shows that we are not equal. It would help if the ROC accepted that in its present form that it does not represent the TC's and actually talked to the TC community leaders about integrating them into the ROC on a basis acceptable to all. I for one would accept representation according to our numbers with safeguards. No one is looking for special treatment here just to safeguard our rights so we dont return to the mistakes of the past. But the ROC does not represent us to any extent and until the "Greek Cypriot Administration" is replaced with a truly representative "Cypriot" goverment the present stalemate will continue.

This is a good point you make Issy. The current RoC administration is 100% GC run. But in order to resolve this stalemate effort is also required on the part of the TCs. Insisting on some kind of recognition for the TRNC is not going to work even though it does represent you for the same reason that it does not represent us (GCs). The point is that the RoC is recognised as being capable of representing the whole island and as such is the internationally recognised government of the whole island, whereas the TRNC is not capable (and does not claim to be either) of representing the GCs. The majority of the political mechanisms in the RoC have not changed since 1963 and have been conserved for the very purpose of accommodating the TC community. Obviously given more recent agreements (i.e. 1977) the RoCs constitution will have to be changed to adopt the BBF system in a comprehensive settlement, but the TRNC cannot and will not achieve recognition in its current form since it deliberately excludes a large majority of the Cypriot population. The only way out that I can see is a comprehensive solution agreed by the majority of Cypriots from both communities.

[despo]

Despo , I did not , and neither did the overwhelming majority , block the possibility of returning to the lost lands. Can you please re study the plan and inform us of how incorrect we were in interpreting the plan as a non starter .
How many Cypriot refugees would be allowed to return , what percentage ?

If you voted against or argued against acceptance of the Annan Plan, you have blocked the people of Province of Ammochostos, including my family, and of the Province of Morphou from returning to their properties, homes, etc. Most of this land would have been part of the GC state by now, including Ammochostos 104 days after the signing of the agreement. In addition, a certain percentage of other GCs who wanted to claim their property in other areas of the north would have begun to do so as well. With the removal of the barbed wire, the border, a good number of Turkish troops and the creation of a joint government within the EU, it would also have been easier to have begun to deal with all the aspects of the property issue.

Now, can you please tell me, how are any displaced GCs going to return to their properties now, with the rejection of the Annan Plan, the fact that the EU has not (as anti-Annan people deludedly believed) made return of GC property a requirement for Turkey joining the EU, and the European Court of Human Rights has requested the Turkish Cypriots to set up a property commission, by which they can return GC property, pay compensation for it or suspend a decision until a final UN settlement? Please explain to me what percentage of GC displaced are going to return now, after the rejection of the Annan Plan.

[despo]

issy , I have always posted that the day Cyprus elects a party in power that is made up of all Cypriot communities , will be the beginning of a long and lasting peace in Cyprus. You say that in order to sell your land in the ROC you need special permission , come now Issy , the Greeks can not sell their land with or without permission , so there is a distinct difference here. The ROC , is Greek administered but it does represent all Cypriots. You can obtain a Cypriot passport . The ROC has never denied you the right to be a Cypriot , what is objecting to is the partition and the creation of a separate state in Cyprus. I would have no problem if a Turkish Cypriot was the leader of a party that gained power and this leader became the President of the ROC.
I DO OBJECT HOWEVER TO A FOREIGN POWER CONTROLLING THE DESTINY OF MY NATION.

Sorry for the double post, but I seriously doubt that, as President of the Republic of Cyprus, Tassos Papadopoulos represents the Turkish Cypriots. In any case, the RoC Constitution does not allow a Turkish Cypriot to become President of the Republic, only a Greek Cypriot. The RoC Constitution does, however, state that there must be a Turkish Cypriot Vice President. If GCs really cared about the constitution of the RoC and in the way that TCs are represented in it, then they would be inviting Mehmet Ali Talat to be the Vice President and give 30% of jobs in the civil service to TCs.

By the way, Miltiaides, as things were until the last election three weeks ago - when the Greek RoC government was forced to change things because TCs had taken the RoC to the European Court of Human Rights - it was very difficult for TCs to stand or to vote in elections, and it is still very difficult for TCs to participate in elections in the RoC.

[Issy1956]

Miltiades,
You are missing the point the differences between the ROC and TRNC is that the ROC is supposed to be a legal law abiding government that treats all its citizens equality-it clearly does not. The TRNC is nothing more than a puppet regime so ofcourse the GC's cant sell their land in the North-they should be able to do so in my opinion if they wish to do so but that is another story. How can the ROC represent me if I dont have any voting rights?
I agree with Despo they should make some moves to get a few TC's involvd in the Government I would be happy to see 18-20% whatever the correct proportion is -any more leads to resentment about special treatment and we know where that leads. I also thought that the Annan plan would have been preferable to the present stalemate-it would have have been a basis to build upon. And before people jump up and down shouting about its bad points nothing stays the same and it could have been improved upon.
My fears are that the longer we let the situation stand we are only cementing partition-which is something I think most TC's do not want. We are already swamped by our Anatolian cousins and in danger of losing our Cypriot identity and I think this would be shame for both the GC and TC communities

[miltiades]

Despo posted:
but I seriously doubt that, as President of the Republic of Cyprus, Tassos Papadopoulos represents the Turkish Cypriots. "
Successive Cypriot governments have maintained that Cyprus consists of one nation and one nation only.Of course the ROC represents all Cypriots. The Cyprus Pound , as well as all other government publications include Turkish as well as Greek. Why are you doubting that the ROC government represents all Cypriots , after all this is the position that this as well as previous governments have maintained .
You appear to have tremendous trust for a nation , Turkey , that is not in a position to claim that trust is one of it's virtues. Apart from this , Turkey is a foreign power just as much as Greece is. I , along with the other Cypriots that rejected the Annan plan , did so purely because Turkey had been exonerated of the 74 invasion and illegal occupation of my country , United Nations resolutions support this statement , and had been given new legal powers of intervention in Cyprus, coupled with the absence of any guarantees that Turkey would abide by the agreement calling for the troop withdrawal . Frankly my dear , I trust Turkey as much as the Turkish Cypriots trust Greece.
Turkey will play the tune that Europe demands and will demand in the coming years.
Cyprus must revert to the pre 74 invasion .
If you read some of my posts you will see that I'm a true Cypriot , one that has never differentiated between Greek and Turkish Cypriots , but has always rejected the motherland nonsense that has caused immense damage to our Country.

[Issy1956]

Miltiades,
Are you taking the piss mate.Do you think having a fewTurkish words on the currency is going to make TC's feel they have a stake in the ROC. Please dont make me laugh. Why didnt the ROC insist that Turkish becomes a community language after all it supposed to be an official language of the ROC yet it did not an become an official EU language when the ROC entered the EU. Yet again the Turkish Cypriot isolated and left out in the cold by the ROC which could have insisted that it became an official EU langauge. It would have been ironic if the ROC were the reason that Turkish became an EU language- However it did no such thing and it is uses only Greek in its official documents I know as I have gone through the courts in the ROC and when I have legal documents made up in the ROC it is only in Greek not Turkish or even English.
Is this what you call representing and looking after the interests of the TC community? Ofcourse the TC will trust the Turks much more it's not enough to have a few words of Turkish on the currency my friend you have to have a genuine partnership if we are going to resolve this.
I also think that you and Mr Pap are putting too much store in the power of the EU to influence Turkey vis a vis the EU. I believe that Turkey will abandon the EU rather than sell out the TC's. No Turkish leader can afford to be seen to be surrendering to the GC's over Cyprus -it would be political suicide and the sooner that they realise that the better