Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kartal_Aetos]

Also, formation of EU was nothing more than to create an economic force to go head to head with the USA, and nothing to do with preventing wars.

i cant agree with this kikapu...im sorry but being some1 who has studied european politics intricately for so long i just cant...the european economy was never an issue...afterall, would france, a country who was invaded by germany, trust germany enough to make such an economic pact? i guarantee that if the Euro currency was introduced in 1954 no1 would have accepted it...the EU didnt even do much until the 90's...if they were a economic pact against the US, they sure didnt achieve much

[Kikapu]

Also, formation of EU was nothing more than to create an economic force to go head to head with the USA, and nothing to do with preventing wars.

i cant agree with this kikapu...im sorry but being some1 who has studied european politics intricately for so long i just cant...the european economy was never an issue...afterall, would france, a country who was invaded by germany, trust germany enough to make such an economic pact? i guarantee that if the Euro currency was introduced in 1954 no1 would have accepted it...the EU didnt even do much until the 90's...if they were a economic pact against the US, they sure didnt achieve much

Kartal_Aetos,

Nato was formed in 1949 to deal with the security problems with the Soviets and against each other. EU at it's early stage in 1950/51 was purely for economic reasons by hand full of nations, including West Germany and France. That's why EU's expantion has always been slow and selective to add new members, to make sure EU was gaining economic strenght, rather than economic drain by adding poor countries into the EU club.

Now that EU has gotten the economic power against the USA, they can afford to allow smaller nations with limited economic contributions to join in, including Cyprus. I hope you don't think Cyprus was a military threat to the EU, if it wasn't allowed in, do you?

EU's (all members) economic power is equal, if not larger than that of USA today, so the EU's economic pact has meet it's objectives, and will become even greater as more countries join in.

[cypezokyli]

first : what does the EU has to gain from malta ?
second : the EU doenot solve political / international conflicts
third : cyprus ofcource wants turkey in the EU , but it is going to use the EU to achieve some aims. it doesnt take a genious to know that that was the reason cyprus entered the EU , and that turkey had to expect that
fourth : even certain turks admit that the reason cyprus entered the EU was .

Cypezokli,

I don't know why you think that EU or it's members are not in the business of solving political / international conflicts, when as part of NATO, they bombed the shit out of Yugoslavia, they sent troops to Iraq to fight a illegal war, they are trying to prevent Iran from advancing their nuclear technology, and helping the CIA to kidnap and torture terror suspect ( they were only suspects and not actual terrorists). So, if the EU and it's members got involved with all of the above and many other events, they could have all tried to solve the Cyprus problem before allowing the membership to Cyprus. When they made such offer for Cyprus to join the EU club with or without the approval of the Annan Plan, it was really an easy joice for PappaD, for not to approve it, believing that he can get all the concesions he wanted from Turkey, as Turkey entered it's talks with the EU. So, if the EU wanted to allow Turkey into the "Christian Club", they would have helped solve the Cyprus problem, otherwise, Cyprus issue would be a great excuse not to allow Turkeys membership.

.

kikapu i am sorry but i honestly do not get your examples.

the EU never attempted to political disputes between its members (IRA is a typical example)
attacking yugoslavia , has nothing to do with EU. precicely bc the EU doenot have a reliable army to unertake such actions. the EU is not part of NATO. and even worse the case of iraq showed more than any other time that the EU doesnot have a common foreign policy.

they sent troops to Iraq to fight a illegal war,

when did that happen ?
some european countries send troops and many others didnnot. even some who send have wihtdrawn or are planning to do so. The EU was absolutely split on the Iraq war , i am surprised that you even mention that as an example!!

Terrorism , is not a dispute between states, but a dispute between states and not-states actors. moreover you ve seen that the europeans were annoyed with their goverments that they cooperated with CIA (on some fields)

As a concequence the EU will not solve the cyprus problem. it is not part of its responsibilities. it can use influence , perhaps even threads, it can even use some sticks and carrots , but the problem lies exclusively in the responsibility of the UN (and the conflicting parties)

PS. As to why allow Malta or any other country into the EU club is simple, they are all non-Muslims. Also, formation of EU was nothing more than to create an economic force to go head to head with the USA, and nothing to do with preventing wars

kikapu, either they accept small countries for economic reasons or not ?

What does Cyprus really have economically, military-ly, or any other -ly you can think of to enhance the EU's standing in the world.

as for the "christian club". its another invented term, to excuse other inneficiencies. true some right wing europeans mentioned that, but thats not the main concern of europe - if there is such a concern.... besides you, yourself mentioned that, the european states supported the attacks in yugoslavia. correct me if i am wrong, but they intervened to save the muslims against some christians.

[Kartal_Aetos]

"By the end of the war, a new impetus for the founding of (what was later to become) the European Union was the desire to rebuild Europe after the disastrous events of World War II, and to prevent Europe from ever again falling victim to the scourge of war"

referenced from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... pean_Union

although the idea for a european economic pact were there, the main reason that pushed european countries into finally creating EU was preventing war...The idea has been around since constantinople fell to the ottoman empire...fact...

[Kikapu]

[
Cypezokli,

I don't know why you think that EU or it's members are not in the business of solving political / international conflicts, when as part of NATO, they bombed the shit out of Yugoslavia, they sent troops to Iraq to fight a illegal war, they are trying to prevent Iran from advancing their nuclear technology, and helping the CIA to kidnap and torture terror suspect ( they were only suspects and not actual terrorists). .

Cypezokyli,

You're correct in pointing out that, it's not the EU body that has interfered with the above conflicts directly, but rather it's members. Well, those same members could have intervened inthe Cyprus conflict also. One member country could have vetoed Cyprus's entry into the EU, until the country was unified. Does that mean none of the (in 2004) 15 members in the EU union, did not want to see a peaceful Cyprus, or was it that, Cyprus not at peace, served their interest better as how to keep Turkey out, was the main point I was making.

[cypezokyli]

they intervened in serbia bc of allegged genocide fears. they didnot really solve the problem , they just stopped the fighting. moreover , would they really have intervened without the US ?

in cyprus there is no military dispute (even if it is a seace fire there are no casualties for years). so on what grounds should they intervene. from a gc point of view I could tell you some grounds they could intervene militarily ....but lets not get into that

....
all of the 15 members wanted a united and peaceful cyprus.

but you seem to forget that the EU is a country with interests , and not an "ethical" organisation (even though on human right level it is the best the world has to offer).

you forget that cyprus had greece in its side during the accession process.

you forget that there was a bargain concerning the cyprus problem and turkeys accession talks. (that a solution to the cyprus problem is not a pre-requisite for cyprus accession. turkey received the right of candidate country)

you forget that cyprus during the negotiations process had a condition ( which is up to interpretation) that it had to remain concetrated on a solution to the cyppro. remember straws statement (if we knew....we wouldnt accept cyprus) ? perhaps that is also on of the reasons that tpap invited the SG for talks end of 2003/ beg 2004. to prove exactly that.

you forget that it was denktash who was giving our side an alothy for years. so long you were chosing denktash as your representative, it was not that difficult to convince the international community that we want a solution. ofcource it was not e pre-requisite that cyprus would accept AP. check birands article today


birand hat also an article in the last weeks concerning the possibility of posrtponing bulgarian and romanian accession. the EU CAN do that. if you dont meet the criteria you dont come in. and they even do it with christian nations. so it has nothing to do with turkey being a muslim state. dont forget that turkey doesnot meet a number of criteria , and it is precisely bc the european leaders are lenient that the road to the EU is still open for turkey(and i perfectly agree with that ) . not everything can be explained by a conspiracy theory

[Kikapu]

they intervened in serbia bc of allegged genocide fears. they didnot really solve the problem , they just stopped the fighting. moreover , would they really have intervened without the US ?

in cyprus there is no military dispute (even if it is a seace fire there are no casualties for years). so on what grounds should they intervene. from a gc point of view I could tell you some grounds they could intervene militarily ....but lets not get into that

....
all of the 15 members wanted a united and peaceful cyprus.

but you seem to forget that the EU is a country with interests , and not an "ethical" organisation (even though on human right level it is the best the world has to offer).

you forget that cyprus had greece in its side during the accession process.

you forget that there was a bargain concerning the cyprus problem and turkeys accession talks. (that a solution to the cyprus problem is not a pre-requisite for cyprus accession. turkey received the right of candidate country)

you forget that cyprus during the negotiations process had a condition ( which is up to interpretation) that it had to remain concetrated on a solution to the cyppro. remember straws statement (if we knew....we wouldnt accept cyprus) ? perhaps that is also on of the reasons that tpap invited the SG for talks end of 2003/ beg 2004. to prove exactly that.

you forget that it was denktash who was giving our side an alothy for years. so long you were chosing denktash as your representative, it was not that difficult to convince the international community that we want a solution. ofcource it was not e pre-requisite that cyprus would accept AP. check birands article today


birand hat also an article in the last weeks concerning the possibility of posrtponing bulgarian and romanian accession. the EU CAN do that. if you dont meet the criteria you dont come in. and they even do it with christian nations. so it has nothing to do with turkey being a muslim state. dont forget that turkey doesnot meet a number of criteria , and it is precisely bc the european leaders are lenient that the road to the EU is still open for turkey(and i perfectly agree with that ) . not everything can be explained by a conspiracy theory

Cypezokyli,

You do make good points in your post. If the EU's position on Cyprus was "hands off " attitude, concidering a united Cyprus in EU would have been much better than the present situation, except a "promise" to correct the Cyprus problems by the RoC later on, and the same for Turkey to start their entry progress, then those can be all empty promises as long as they show a mild intrest in solving the problem. Since 2004, how much has the RoC and Turkey have actually done to solve the problem. What incentive is for the RoC to give an inch, when it can wait out Turkey, while she goes through her entry talks. It's true that, Turkey has a lot more to resolve than just the Cyprus problem to be accepted ( if ever), which adds more problems to the problem. Turkey can now take her time to propose any meaningful proposals until she is actually in the EU.

Lets for a moment forget that Turkey is a Muslim state, which it will disqualify her in my views, she still has many obstacles in her way, and as long as these obstacles remain, there won't be a peace settlement with the RoC, which seems to think, she can get a much better deal than the Annan Plan. Earliest predictions for Turkeys entry is 10-15 years + the last 32 years, it will be around 45 years of divided Cyprus. As for Jack Straws comment on "if we knew ...we wouldn't have accepted Cyprus" is a lame excuse on what ever the question was regarding Cyprus's entry. I do not know what he was refering to, but I can figure out that, ooppss sorry, we made a mistake, just to save face with Turkey. I'm not really advocating for Turkeys EU entry, but rather EU members not helping Cyprus solve it's problems, when they had better opportunity back in 2004, than they will have in the next 10-15 years.

[cypezokyli]

i agree with your concerns kikapu.
i am also not excited about tpaps tacticts. perhaps by the end of the year they will either bear fruit or completely fail.
i agree that since 2004 no real progress have been made with the leaderships not appearing to be worried about it. these are well taken points. and i share them with you. i agree that time works against all of us , and our leaderships need to understand that. to be honest i am terrified by that fact. i have mentioned over and over again, that even if tpap manages to push turkey so hard that he receives what he wants (whatever that is) would the advantage of what is received compensate another 10-15 years of no -solution ?
such questions are always open to interpretation

in these we more-or-less agree.
but as far as i understood that was not the point of your original post
where our disagreement lies is on your perception of the EU. I think you are expecting actions from the EU which are outside its cabapilities , range of interests , or even part of its targets.

[Kikapu]

where our disagreement lies is on your perception of the EU. I think you are expecting actions from the EU which are outside its cabapilities , range of interests , or even part of its targets.

Cypezokyli,

Perhaps I perceived the EU to be much more able body than it's not, if it can not insist a new member have their house in order before being allow to join the club. However, that does not excuse individual EU members not acting outside the EU body to prevent Cyprus's entry, until the Cyprus problem was solved, this is why I believe, in order to keep Turkey out, EU will let Cyprus do their dirt work.

When individual EU member states, chose to go to war in Iraq, when the EU body did not approve to join the EU body with the war, it is apparent that , they can choose to get involved in a illegal war but not get involve in peace. Perhaps you can understand my mistrust with Cyprus being allowed in the EU, under these circumstances.

[Kikapu]

Did you ever wonder, why the EU accepted the RoC into it's private "Christian Club".? I have, and what I'm beginning to understand better is, that the RoC was not accepted to join the EU block because what it can bring to the EU block, but rather, what it can keep out. What does Cyprus really have economically, military-ly, or any other -ly you can think of to enhance the EU's standing in the world. I would say from next to nothing to nothing. So what was the attraction then .?

EU, who believes in Democracy and civil liberties to all individuals, screwed-up when it gave membership to the RoC, without first unifying the island. Why be in such a hurry to allow a nation who has been involved in a civil war that was mainly of their making, by ignoring the basic foundation of the Constitution, that all citizens are expected to live by. Even internationally organized forum (Annan Plan) to unify the island, was not accepted by the EU, to wait until the problems were resolved, before allowing Cyprus's entry.

CYPRUS BLOCKS EU-TURKEY TALKS was the story in the papers the last couple of days. So can we now please stop with the BS that Cyprus and Greece wants Turkey in the EU block. But they are only 2 of the 25 EU "Christian Clubs" that does not want a Muslim nation joining in. Rather, countries like Germany and France and bunch of others, are now going to be using Cyprus to carry their "POISON PILL" to kill off any chances for Turkey to enter the EU, by linking the Cyprus problems to the talks. What better way to use little ol Cyprus to do other EU's nations dirty work. It was a small price to pay to allow Cyprus come into the EU, if it kept Turkey out.

You may start celebrating by RoC using it's limited power to stop Turkeys EU entry. The only problem is, the RoC is now assuring the GC refugees never to expect to return back to their homes again in Nothern part of Cyprus under the RoC, because the RoC is willing to be the "fall guy" for the EU to win some "browny point" by sticking it's nose way up the EU's ass. This will pave the way for the TC's to start their move to be annexed by Turkey, with it's permanent borders with the RoC, as the "Green Line" exists today. I believe, Turkey will invite all the GC refugees to return to their homes in the "North", if they want to live as a minority group with all rights given to them, which will be part of Turkey.

So can we please stop with all this "Solution to Cyprus" talk on this forum, when the RoC has no intentions in finding a solution, since their "masters" are calling the shots from Brussel. The RoC, has sent it's refugees down the river to drown, so as to be seen as a important political player on the world's stage.

Are you still not convinced that the EU is using the ROC as a "Trojan Horse" to poison Turkeys accesion chances, with the recent developments between the "Christian EU Club" and Turkey. Poor little ROC, really thought, that she was accepted into the EU on it's merits, instead it's played for a fool. So what's new.

As I told Piratis recently. " Be careful what you ask for, because you might just get it". Well, the time is approching very fast for a permanent decisions to be made on Cyprus, while PappaD is wondering why he is kicked of the center stage by the EU so quickly, when he still has 70 more veto points to use against Turkey, to be a major player in EU decision making circles. Oh, what a fool.