Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

Well then you must accept that we who know about because we learned about it in school do know the difference and we know that one of the two are considered traitors even by the GC.

learning something in school is not necessarily correct

You would be right if we were only taught about how great it was. But they taught us both the good and bad. They didnt try hide what happened with EOKA B they emphasized on it and how bad it was. Now if you just hate being who you are you can just doubt everything but, I find that I can sift through everything I learned in school and tell between whats correct and whats propaganda. It seems cypezokyli you just hate everything you were taught no?

why cant you people accept any kind of critisism and you are always reffering to personal attacks.
i dont hate who i am .
i am actually proud of what i am... well most of the times (some nationalists make me embarrassed from time to time)

but i will try to justify what i say , instead of returning the personal attacks. thats one o the things i didnot learn at school

i would be interested to see the exact quote (for example) that expresses the slightest critisism about EOKA (the first one) . unless you believe the first was like the pope - no mistakes.

first of all we dont even have a book about cypriot history (perhaps except the neolithic part) , so i dont know what we are talking about here. we are taught books from greece , which at most have one page (perhaps two) about the cyprus problem. unless cyprus problem can be explained in one page!!!

if it is otherwise , than i am willing to apologise. tell me which book is that, that refers to cypriot history between 55-74. i am really interested in reading it.


i will try and post later on things that are missing from our school books.
in the meantime read this. it will give you a new perspective of how much "truth" you have learned at school.
its not about cyprus , but about greece - but since thats the history we learned....

http://www.ndimou.gr/articledisplay.asp ... &cat_id=39

let me post a small part for you in greek. (sorry but i have to go to class no time to trnslate now...perhaps later)

Ένας ακόμα τεράστιος μύθος, είναι η εκκλησία ως στοιχείο της εθνικής μας ταυτότητας. Ότι δηλαδή η εκκλησία ήταν πάντα βοηθός στον έλληνα, έκανε το κρυφό σχολειό, κράτησε την εθνική συνείδηση τον καιρό της τουρκοκρατίας, και μετά αγωνίστηκε για την ελευθερία και την επανάσταση. Στο σχολείο μαθαίνουμε ότι στις 25 Μαρτίου, ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός, σήκωσε το λάβαρο της επαναστάσεως στην Αγία Λαύρα. Έχω να σας πω ότι ούτε μία λέξη από αυτή τη φράση, δεν είναι αλήθεια. Η επανάσταση δεν έγινε στις 25 αλλά στις 22, δεν άρχισε στην Αγία Λαύρα, όπου δεν υπήρχε ψυχή, αλλά στη Μάνη με τους Μαυρομιχαλαίους, ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός, ήταν εναντίον της επαναστάσεως, και το λάβαρο δεν υπήρχε. Κατασκευάστηκε πολλά χρόνια μετά, αυτό που έσειε ο Χριστόδουλος στην πλατεία Συντάγματος.

Όλο αυτό λοιπόν που γίνεται διδαχή στα σχολεία, είναι ένα ψέμα. Η εκκλησία ήταν υπέρ των Τούρκων, ο Πατριάρχης Γρηγόριος ο Ε΄ πριν από την επανάσταση, είχε βγάλει μια «Εγκύκλιο Πατερική», όπου λέει ότι η δουλεία των ελλήνων στους τούρκους, είναι δώρο Θεού, και πρέπει να είμαστε ευτυχείς και ευγνώμονες στο Θεό, που μας έδωσε ένα τόσο καλό δυνάστη, να φροντίζουμε δε, για τη σωτηρία της ψυχής μας και τον άλλο κόσμο, και όχι τον υπάρχοντα. Ο δε μέγας εχθρός των ελλήνων, δεν είναι ο τούρκος, αλλά οι ξενόφερτες ιδέες, από τη δύση, περί δήθεν ελευθερίας και δημοκρατίας.

Αναρωτιέμαι πόσοι έλληνες ξέρουν ότι η εκκλησία αφόρισε το Ρήγα Φεραίο, και την Επανάσταση του Υψηλάντη; Πόσοι γνωρίζουν ότι δεν υπήρξε ποτέ το κρυφό σχολειό; To κρυφό σχολειό ως έννοια δημιουργήθηκε 30 χρόνια μετά την απελευθέρωση. Οι τούρκοι δεν ασχολιόντουσαν με το τι μάθαιναν οι έλληνες. Τους ενδιέφερε μόνο το χαράτσι. Από εκεί και πέρα οι υπόδουλοι ήταν αυτοδιοικούμενοι. Η δε εκκλησία, προσπαθούσε να μη μορφωθούν οι έλληνες. Όταν ο σπουδαίος Μεθόδιος Ανθρακίτης άρχισε στα μέσα του 17ου αιώνα να διδάσκει το Νεύτωνα το Κοπέρνικο, τη νέα Φυσική, τα νέα Μαθηματικά, τον αφόρισαν, τον ρίξαν σε ένα μπουντρούμι, του κάψαν τα βιβλία, και του απαγόρευσαν να διδάσκει. Το ίδιο έγινε με όλους τους φωτισμένους. Τη μοίρα του Θεόφιλου Καίρη, τη ξέρουμε όλοι. Τελικά πέθανε μέσα στη φυλακή και δύο μέρες μετά ο Άρειος Πάγος τον αθώωσε από τις κατηγορίες.

what do we know about the beggining of the revolution andry . about when , where and who started it?
dont we learn that kryfo sholio existed (there are no historical sources for that) ?
do we learn that the church was against hte recolution ?
do we learn that grigorios said , that the rule of the turks was send to the greeks by God , and the greeks should obey and that the real enemy for the greeks is those western ideas concerning "liberty" and "democracy" or do we learn that he was a hero of the revolution hunged by the turks (which was truth....but as usual half of it....the whole truth doesnt make him a hero, but a traitor) ?

do we learn that the church was against the greeks educating themselves ?

these are just small examples about a very small proportion of what we learn in school.

read the whole interview. its educational


school books never say the truth (or at least hide half of it) . their purpose is to create nations and not teach the truth.
and dont worry i am perfectly sure , that the turkish books are no better

[Natty]

Hey, the yes people in cyprus at that time did want ennosis, but just because cyprus was joined with Greece does not mean that the TC's would have to be "Ethnically cleansed" they would have been an even bigger minority whithin Greece, which I can understand they did not want! If Greece had tried to get rid of the TC's I think there would have been an uprising amongs't the GC's! That is not what they wanted, please trust me, I have never been told by anyone, whether it be my familly or others that we want the TC's out of Cyprus!! Never!! When you say that your village was under attack from EOKA millitia, which EOKA was this the original or the B one? Did you witness these attacks or were you told that they were after you? I'm sorry, I know it sounds like I don't beleive you, I dont' doubt what you experienced but I can't help but think that these "EOKA" millitias were a bunch of extremests, irregulars....If people keep telling you that the GC's are trying to ethnically cleanse you, I can imagine the fear and mistrust......

Peace!

PS, If I have offended anyone I am very sorry, I didn't mean to, it's just that these forums can get you quite riled up can't they!?! (",)

[michalis5354]

Kartal, EOKA was formed to fight the British off the island.
EOKA B's objective was ENOSIS. They did have different objetives.

Both EOKA A and B had Enosis as a target. This is the mission they have been established for! Grivas has given to both organisations a bad name not only in Cyprus but also abroad! In school they never clarify details and many times they do not offer the full picture.

This is the reason the struggle of EOKA has not gained any international Support because it crossed the line with EOKA B which has commited many attrocities that have classified the whole organisation as a terrorist group and not as one with a justified mission.

[Natty]

Hey, me again! Look I think that we should never 100% beleive what we read, it's always gonna contain the authors opinion, and it depends what you beleive I suppose....Modern History is so hard to understand, when people live through what happens there experiences, what they get told, what people around them tell them, they form there own opinion on what happened. I was told that EOKA, the original one, was the only honarable one. The fought to get rid of the British and when, after the majority of the population voted for ennosis, for ennosis. But the main aim was always to get rid of the British. People wanted ennosis, because it felt, I suppose like the natural thing to do. All the aegean Islands had eventually become part of Greece, so I geuss Cyrpus was the next one. people seem to think that these Islands, or other parts of Greece in fact the whole of Greece didn't have ethnic Turks in, well of course they did, it was exactly like Cyprus but because of the Tukish_Greco war that changed (I'm not going to go into that, way too complicated...lol (",)) Some of the Islands just like Cyrpus were under British rule, but because they were not not strageticaly important they were handed over. In fact Britiain even offered Cyprus to Greece, during I think the first world war, do you think Britiain cared what happened to Turkish Cypriots then? Makarios told people that Enossis was not possible anymore and around 99.9 % of the pop accepted this, however Eoka B was formed, it's very few members still thought that Enossis was possible, they were controlled by the junta, and the CIA were also involved. The Americans promised that Turkey would not invade when the coup happened. My father remembers that in my Grandads village, whic was near a hotspot of EOKA B activity, when the coup happened a few EOKA B members actually locked some 0f the makarios supporters in the local school!! (stupid I know, i don't know what they were trying to achieve!!) But when the Turks invaded they fled!! I don't know what the EOKA B's policy on Turkish Cypriots was, but I do know that EOKA's policy was not to harm the TC's, it was between EOKA and the british army as far as they were concerned! But of course the british messed that up.....I know it seems like I hate the British, but I really don't I am British after all, a british Cyrpiot of course, but when people are in a position of power it just seems to got to their heads...as in all country's! For any TC's on this forum, please understand that the GC's do not hate the TC's or even the Turks, we just resent the fact the after 32 years we still cannot move freely throughout are Island, and the only thing stopping us is the Turkish troops protecting "the border". I'm sure the TC's feel like that as well! Peace! (",)

[Natty]

Hey, me again! Look I think that we should never 100% beleive what we read, it's always gonna contain the authors opinion, and it depends what you beleive I suppose....Modern History is so hard to understand, when people live through what happens there experiences, what they get told, what people around them tell them, they form there own opinion on what happened. I was told that EOKA, the original one, was the only honarable one. The fought to get rid of the British and when, after the majority of the population voted for ennosis, for ennosis. But the main aim was always to get rid of the British. People wanted ennosis, because it felt, I suppose like the natural thing to do. All the aegean Islands had eventually become part of Greece, so I geuss Cyrpus was the next one. people seem to think that these Islands, or other parts of Greece in fact the whole of Greece didn't have ethnic Turks in, well of course they did, it was exactly like Cyprus but because of the Tukish_Greco war that changed (I'm not going to go into that, way too complicated...lol (",)) Some of the Islands just like Cyrpus were under British rule, but because they were not not strageticaly important they were handed over. In fact Britiain even offered Cyprus to Greece, during I think the first world war, do you think Britiain cared what happened to Turkish Cypriots then? Makarios told people that Enossis was not possible anymore and around 99.9 % of the pop accepted this, however Eoka B was formed, it's very few members still thought that Enossis was possible, they were controlled by the junta, and the CIA were also involved. The Americans promised that Turkey would not invade when the coup happened. My father remembers that in my Grandads village, whic was near a hotspot of EOKA B activity, when the coup happened a few EOKA B members actually locked some 0f the makarios supporters in the local school!! (stupid I know, i don't know what they were trying to achieve!!) But when the Turks invaded they fled!! I don't know what the EOKA B's policy on Turkish Cypriots was, but I do know that EOKA's policy was not to harm the TC's, it was between EOKA and the british army as far as they were concerned! But of course the british messed that up.....I know it seems like I hate the British, but I really don't I am British after all, a british Cyrpiot of course, but when people are in a position of power it just seems to got to their heads...as in all country's! For any TC's on this forum, please understand that the GC's do not hate the TC's or even the Turks, we just resent the fact the after 32 years we still cannot move freely throughout are Island, and the only thing stopping us is the Turkish troops protecting "the border". I'm sure the TC's feel like that as well! Peace! (",)

[andri_cy]

Well then you must accept that we who know about because we learned about it in school do know the difference and we know that one of the two are considered traitors even by the GC.

learning something in school is not necessarily correct

You would be right if we were only taught about how great it was. But they taught us both the good and bad. They didnt try hide what happened with EOKA B they emphasized on it and how bad it was. Now if you just hate being who you are you can just doubt everything but, I find that I can sift through everything I learned in school and tell between whats correct and whats propaganda. It seems cypezokyli you just hate everything you were taught no?

why cant you people accept any kind of critisism and you are always reffering to personal attacks.
i dont hate who i am .
i am actually proud of what i am... well most of the times (some nationalists make me embarrassed from time to time)

but i will try to justify what i say , instead of returning the personal attacks. thats one o the things i didnot learn at school

i would be interested to see the exact quote (for example) that expresses the slightest critisism about EOKA (the first one) . unless you believe the first was like the pope - no mistakes.

first of all we dont even have a book about cypriot history (perhaps except the neolithic part) , so i dont know what we are talking about here. we are taught books from greece , which at most have one page (perhaps two) about the cyprus problem. unless cyprus problem can be explained in one page!!!

if it is otherwise , than i am willing to apologise. tell me which book is that, that refers to cypriot history between 55-74. i am really interested in reading it.


i will try and post later on things that are missing from our school books.
in the meantime read this. it will give you a new perspective of how much "truth" you have learned at school.
its not about cyprus , but about greece - but since thats the history we learned....

http://www.ndimou.gr/articledisplay.asp ... &cat_id=39

let me post a small part for you in greek. (sorry but i have to go to class no time to trnslate now...perhaps later)

Ένας ακόμα τεράστιος μύθος, είναι η εκκλησία ως στοιχείο της εθνικής μας ταυτότητας. Ότι δηλαδή η εκκλησία ήταν πάντα βοηθός στον έλληνα, έκανε το κρυφό σχολειό, κράτησε την εθνική συνείδηση τον καιρό της τουρκοκρατίας, και μετά αγωνίστηκε για την ελευθερία και την επανάσταση. Στο σχολείο μαθαίνουμε ότι στις 25 Μαρτίου, ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός, σήκωσε το λάβαρο της επαναστάσεως στην Αγία Λαύρα. Έχω να σας πω ότι ούτε μία λέξη από αυτή τη φράση, δεν είναι αλήθεια. Η επανάσταση δεν έγινε στις 25 αλλά στις 22, δεν άρχισε στην Αγία Λαύρα, όπου δεν υπήρχε ψυχή, αλλά στη Μάνη με τους Μαυρομιχαλαίους, ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός, ήταν εναντίον της επαναστάσεως, και το λάβαρο δεν υπήρχε. Κατασκευάστηκε πολλά χρόνια μετά, αυτό που έσειε ο Χριστόδουλος στην πλατεία Συντάγματος.

Όλο αυτό λοιπόν που γίνεται διδαχή στα σχολεία, είναι ένα ψέμα. Η εκκλησία ήταν υπέρ των Τούρκων, ο Πατριάρχης Γρηγόριος ο Ε΄ πριν από την επανάσταση, είχε βγάλει μια «Εγκύκλιο Πατερική», όπου λέει ότι η δουλεία των ελλήνων στους τούρκους, είναι δώρο Θεού, και πρέπει να είμαστε ευτυχείς και ευγνώμονες στο Θεό, που μας έδωσε ένα τόσο καλό δυνάστη, να φροντίζουμε δε, για τη σωτηρία της ψυχής μας και τον άλλο κόσμο, και όχι τον υπάρχοντα. Ο δε μέγας εχθρός των ελλήνων, δεν είναι ο τούρκος, αλλά οι ξενόφερτες ιδέες, από τη δύση, περί δήθεν ελευθερίας και δημοκρατίας.

Αναρωτιέμαι πόσοι έλληνες ξέρουν ότι η εκκλησία αφόρισε το Ρήγα Φεραίο, και την Επανάσταση του Υψηλάντη; Πόσοι γνωρίζουν ότι δεν υπήρξε ποτέ το κρυφό σχολειό; To κρυφό σχολειό ως έννοια δημιουργήθηκε 30 χρόνια μετά την απελευθέρωση. Οι τούρκοι δεν ασχολιόντουσαν με το τι μάθαιναν οι έλληνες. Τους ενδιέφερε μόνο το χαράτσι. Από εκεί και πέρα οι υπόδουλοι ήταν αυτοδιοικούμενοι. Η δε εκκλησία, προσπαθούσε να μη μορφωθούν οι έλληνες. Όταν ο σπουδαίος Μεθόδιος Ανθρακίτης άρχισε στα μέσα του 17ου αιώνα να διδάσκει το Νεύτωνα το Κοπέρνικο, τη νέα Φυσική, τα νέα Μαθηματικά, τον αφόρισαν, τον ρίξαν σε ένα μπουντρούμι, του κάψαν τα βιβλία, και του απαγόρευσαν να διδάσκει. Το ίδιο έγινε με όλους τους φωτισμένους. Τη μοίρα του Θεόφιλου Καίρη, τη ξέρουμε όλοι. Τελικά πέθανε μέσα στη φυλακή και δύο μέρες μετά ο Άρειος Πάγος τον αθώωσε από τις κατηγορίες.

what do we know about the beggining of the revolution andry . about when , where and who started it?
dont we learn that kryfo sholio existed (there are no historical sources for that) ?
do we learn that the church was against hte recolution ?
do we learn that grigorios said , that the rule of the turks was send to the greeks by God , and the greeks should obey and that the real enemy for the greeks is those western ideas concerning "liberty" and "democracy" or do we learn that he was a hero of the revolution hunged by the turks (which was truth....but as usual half of it....the whole truth doesnt make him a hero, but a traitor) ?

do we learn that the church was against the greeks educating themselves ?

these are just small examples about a very small proportion of what we learn in school.

read the whole interview. its educational


school books never say the truth (or at least hide half of it) . their purpose is to create nations and not teach the truth.
and dont worry i am perfectly sure , that the turkish books are no better

Well I dont know about anything else, because right now I am just skimming through as I am in a big hurry. I will read it more carefully later and reply. When I was in school, we had a "cyprus history" book that was published in Cyprus. It was not very extensive and it covered mostly 1955 and after. Anyways, maybe they dont use it anymore maybe they do. I will reply to the rest of your comments when I have more time to read and comprehend everything you say-i dont want to reply in a hasty way that might actually convey the wrong message.

[Jerry]

The saddest thing about this whole EOKA business is that Cyprus would have achieved independece without a struggle sooner or later and on much better terms than in 1960, possibly majority rule. Most other colonies became independent in the 1960s. As for Grivas he was a short-sighted fool who lacked vision, he may have been good at killing people but he was a lousy politician. Some interesting aspects of the struggle from a British perspective can be seen here. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/index.html

[cypezokyli]

Hey, me again! Look I think that we should never 100% beleive what we read, it's always gonna contain the authors opinion, and it depends what you beleive I suppose....Modern History is so hard to understand, when people live through what happens there experiences, what they get told, what people around them tell them, they form there own opinion on what happened. I was told that EOKA, the original one, was the only honarable one. The fought to get rid of the British and when, after the majority of the population voted for ennosis, for ennosis. But the main aim was always to get rid of the British. People wanted ennosis, because it felt, I suppose like the natural thing to do. All the aegean Islands had eventually become part of Greece, so I geuss Cyrpus was the next one. people seem to think that these Islands, or other parts of Greece in fact the whole of Greece didn't have ethnic Turks in, well of course they did, it was exactly like Cyprus but because of the Tukish_Greco war that changed (I'm not going to go into that, way too complicated...lol (",)) Some of the Islands just like Cyrpus were under British rule, but because they were not not strageticaly important they were handed over. In fact Britiain even offered Cyprus to Greece, during I think the first world war, do you think Britiain cared what happened to Turkish Cypriots then? Makarios told people that Enossis was not possible anymore and around 99.9 % of the pop accepted this, however Eoka B was formed, it's very few members still thought that Enossis was possible, they were controlled by the junta, and the CIA were also involved. The Americans promised that Turkey would not invade when the coup happened. My father remembers that in my Grandads village, whic was near a hotspot of EOKA B activity, when the coup happened a few EOKA B members actually locked some 0f the makarios supporters in the local school!! (stupid I know, i don't know what they were trying to achieve!!) But when the Turks invaded they fled!! I don't know what the EOKA B's policy on Turkish Cypriots was, but I do know that EOKA's policy was not to harm the TC's, it was between EOKA and the british army as far as they were concerned! But of course the british messed that up.....I know it seems like I hate the British, but I really don't I am British after all, a british Cyrpiot of course, but when people are in a position of power it just seems to got to their heads...as in all country's! For any TC's on this forum, please understand that the GC's do not hate the TC's or even the Turks, we just resent the fact the after 32 years we still cannot move freely throughout are Island, and the only thing stopping us is the Turkish troops protecting "the border". I'm sure the TC's feel like that as well! Peace! (",)

i agree with most of your post....not the bold parts though


jerry wrote:

The saddest thing about this whole EOKA business is that Cyprus would have achieved independece without a struggle sooner or later and on much better terms than in 1960, possibly majority rule. Most other colonies became independent in the 1960s. As for Grivas he was a short-sighted fool who lacked vision, he may have been good at killing people but he was a lousy politician. Some interesting aspects of the struggle from a British perspective can be seen here. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/index.html

most probably you are right , but this conclusion is always with the knowledge of today.
i agree about grivas.

[Piratis]

As far as I was aware the are NO British bases on RoC soil

There are British bases in Cyprus and Cyprus belongs to Cypriots and not to colonialist pigs that can not accept that the era of colonialism is over and they insist on exploiting foreign lands and people.

About EOKA, before 1960 such thing as an independent Cyprus did not exist. Cyprus was an island with 82% Greek population under the British rule.

Other islands with big Greek majorities have been under the British and when they were liberated they became part of Greece.

Greece regained its territories gradually. Are you going to tell me that each territory that was liberated should have been a separate small independent country because there was some muslim/slavic etc minority in it?
If it was like that we would have 10 small Greece and not one. (the same with many other countries)

Therefore before 1960, the struggle for liberation was naturally equal to the one of union with Greece. If Cyprus had 82% Turkish population is there anybody in here that believes that Cyprus would not be part of Turkey?

Asking for union with Greece was nothing wrong and it required the violation of the human rights of nobody.
According to UN resolution 1541 about decolonization :

Also in 1960, the Assembly approved resolution 1541 (XV), defining free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government.

The problem was that the British colonialists refused for decades to allow the Cypriot people to decide their own destiny in a democratic way, which in the end had as a result the brake out of violence with many victims, some of which have been innocent.

Therefore while criticizing some of the wrong actions of EOKA A and especially that idiot Grivas is perfectly correct, you can not say that the cause of EOKA A was wrong.

EOKA B was a criminal organization that went against democracy in Cyprus and whatever bad you say about them would be correct.

[bg_turk]

Other islands with big Greek majorities have been under the British and when they were liberated they became part of Greece.

Liberation? For the Greeks maybe. But for the Turks it meant death, expulsion and subjugation. As Fred Reed wisely said about the Balkans "one man's national martyr is another's war criminal, where one country's founding myth is another's tale of woe and usurpation.