Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Or put another way five days of illegality begot thirty-two years of indifference to the treaty.

As I said, an excuse for Turkey to execute the plans they had for Cyprus since before the 50s.

One day of regret and remorse from a president that started the ball rolling in the first place

The ball started rolling when the Turks first invaded Cyprus, killing 10.000s of thousands of Greek Cypriots within days and then oppressed them for 300 years. Of Makarios just woke up one day and said "hey, what is this ball? Lets roll it"

Interesting that for you the ball "started rolling" not in the beginning, but at a convenient for you point in history, while you again conveniently forget the rest 99% of history before and after that.

Today Turkey does what it did to Cyprus for the most part of the last 5 centuries with only a short break: violating our human rights by giving lame excuses.

Liberation for Cyprus, Kurds and many other people in our area will come only when the military ruled Nazi state of Turkey cease to exist, and in this direction we should work.

[Kifeas]

Or put another way five days of illegality begot thirty-two years of indifference to the treaty.

As I said, an excuse for Turkey to execute the plans they had for Cyprus since before the 50s.

One day of regret and remorse from a president that started the ball rolling in the first place

The ball started rolling when the Turks first invaded Cyprus, killing 10.000s of thousands of Greek Cypriots within days and then oppressed them for 300 years. Of Makarios just woke up one day and said "hey, what is this ball? Lets roll it"

Interesting that for you the ball "started rolling" not in the beginning, but at a convenient for you point in history, while you again conveniently forget the rest 99% of history before and after that.

Today Turkey does what it did to Cyprus for the most part of the last 5 centuries with only a short break: violating our human rights by giving lame excuses.

Liberation for Cyprus, Kurds and many other people in our area will come only when the military ruled Nazi state of Turkey cease to exist, and in this direction we should work.

Let’s talk about some real genocide!

When the Ottoman Turks occupied Cyprus in 1571, after the killings of thousands during the various conquering assaults (in Nicosia alone they killed some 20,000 during the first 3 days after the fall of the city,) they then counted the population and they found some 30,000 households, a number that equates to approximately 150,000 people.

When the British took over in 1878, they counted the population of Cyprus and they found some 180,000, out of which some 43,000 were TCs and some 137,000 were GCs.

With the 1% annual population growth rate that we have nowadays, (a rather low one in comparison to other countries in the region,) during the 307 years that the Ottoman occupation lasted, we should have increased from 150,000 people that we were in 1571, to some 3 million and 180 thousands (3,180,000) in 1878, when the British took over.

However, not only we did not increase to 3,180,000 but in fact we decreased from 150,000 in 1571, down to 137,000 in 1878.

What happened to the rest?
Genocide???

Hypothesis proof test:
From 1878 when the Ottomans left, until nowadays (2006,) we have increased from 137,000 to 670,000. This is in fact more than 1% growth rate per year, during the last 128 years.

Yes, Genocide! The GCs have undergone genocide during the Ottoman Turkish occupation of Cyprus. Yet, we never blamed the TCs for what their (claimed by them) ancestors did on us!

[zan]

Or put another way five days of illegality begot thirty-two years of indifference to the treaty.

As I said, an excuse for Turkey to execute the plans they had for Cyprus since before the 50s.

One day of regret and remorse from a president that started the ball rolling in the first place

The ball started rolling when the Turks first invaded Cyprus, killing 10.000s of thousands of Greek Cypriots within days and then oppressed them for 300 years. Of Makarios just woke up one day and said "hey, what is this ball? Lets roll it"

Interesting that for you the ball "started rolling" not in the beginning, but at a convenient for you point in history, while you again conveniently forget the rest 99% of history before and after that.

Today Turkey does what it did to Cyprus for the most part of the last 5 centuries with only a short break: violating our human rights by giving lame excuses.

Liberation for Cyprus, Kurds and many other people in our area will come only when the military ruled Nazi state of Turkey cease to exist, and in this direction we should work.

And we got punished for the sins of our fathers of three hundred years ago, with ENOSIS and the ethnic cleansing and murdering. That must have been a lot of pent up anger. What I and many TCs are worried about is whether you will want to exact your revenge to the point of equaling those numbers if the Turkish soldiers withdraw.

[Piratis]

In Cyprus the only genocides were committed by the Turks against Greek Cypriots.

Were did you see a genocide against TCs????

A few 100s of TCs and a few 100s of GCs died during the intercommunal conflict over a period of some years. Is that what you call a "genocide" in a lame attempt to make GCs look as bad as you are?

Genocides were what the Turks performed since they butchered 10s of thousands of innocent people at a time.

What I and many TCs are worried about is whether you will want to exact your revenge to the point of equaling those numbers if the Turkish soldiers withdraw.

In case they withdraw and they finally stop the crimes against us there will be no revenge. However if they don't and they stay there until the day that the balance of power will inevitably change then maybe we should. If I remember correctly you said that ethnic cleansing is a good way to solve problems and that the two communities can not mix and they should stay separately, didn't you?
If thats what you want then be sure that what you wish for us, will instead happen to you.

[zan]

Keep writing Piratis the hole you are digging for your self is getting deeper and deeper. I hope your government is reading what you are writing. They may even give you a medal whilst you are wearing your blue beree and saluting a Greek flag.

[Alexis]

By putting both of these two things into the same sentence is wrong. The intervention was legal. The partition was politically just for the time. It was not the TCs that tried to change the constitution illegally as Makarios did. It was not the TCs that tried to enosis the island illegally. Taksim was a direct response to both again illegally. I think these might be the mistakes that you are referring to later on in your post.

It's only wrong because it clearly shows that the Turkish intervention and occupation was illegal and that does not suit your argument. You can argue that it was only ever in response to Enosis but the fact is we have de facto partition now, and we never had Enosis even when Samson was in control. Blame Makarios by all means he sure has a lot to answer for but he was the legitimate president of the RoC at the time and was clearly ousted by people who wanted Enosis. Turkey's interfvention would only have been legal if she sided with GC elements against the coupists to restore Makarios. of course by 1963 the RoC was already de facto split into two administrations one of which was supported by Turkey and one not, so of course she did not do this. Yes, mistakes were made, but do not be fooled into thinking they were only by one side. The TCs drive for partition of the island was just a deplorable as the GCs desire for Enosis. Sure fool yourself that it was only ever 'in response' to enosis but the fact is partitionists were around in Cyprus amongst the TC population long before 1960.

Again adding a third factor to the intervention is wrong. The recognition of the TRNC was not legal under that treaty and so the UN had to refuse it. This takes nothing away from the intervention. It was needed. The problem of both sides having to adhere to a now defunct constitution was the only thing solved in 1974.

Again, only wrong because it happens to make the intervention illegal. Turkey intervened by invoking the treaty of guarantee selectively. The minute her forces began expelling GCs and consolidating their positions for the de facto partition of Cyprus she had already violated the treaty there are no two ways about it, this happened in 1974 not 1983.

I am only making a big deal out of this because I believe if reconciliation is to happen not only do GCs have to own up to crimes against the TC community in the time between 1963-1974 but the TC community does too and in particular acknowledge that Turkey's intervention was a crime against the GC community. The first step is to acknowledge that Turkey's intervention was against the treaty of guarantee, the same way I as a GC acknowledge that the GC coup was against the treaty for attempting Enosis.

[zan]

Turkey intervened by invoking the treaty of guarantee selectively. The minute her forces began expelling GCs and consolidating their positions for the de facto partition of Cyprus she had already violated the treaty there are no two ways about it, this happened in 1974 not 1983.

I am glad we are starting from a more relevant date of 1960
There fore you must agree that the treaty was violated when Makarios went against Denktas’, veto. The treaty was violated when Enosis was sought.

I thought I made it clear that according to the treaty the point of legality was lost as soon as the road to division was started. What I am suggesting is that by that time, the treaty was made null and void by previous actions. To put it bluntly, why should one side be able to practice these illegalities and ask the other to abide by the treaty. It does not make sense. To me the cause and effect has to make sense. My argument is that there are people who are set to distort these series of events, leapfrogging over them like crazed frogs. I don’t think either of us would not wish that part of our history away but it has happened. Unlike what most people think, that Cyprus has been lying dormant for thirty-four years, it hasn’t. It has festered and factions have developed, on both sides, with their own political agendas. Do we dare let them loose on one another????????

[Svetlana]

We have gone way off topic and are back to History again; post about Gary Robb or post elsewhere, please.

Lana

[andri_cy]

Yes way off topic. Now we are talking about things that happened 500 years ago.

[Kifeas]

Again, only wrong because it happens to make the intervention illegal. Turkey intervened by invoking the treaty of guarantee selectively. The minute her forces began expelling GCs and consolidating their positions for the de facto partition of Cyprus she had already violated the treaty there are no two ways about it, this happened in 1974 not 1983.

I am only making a big deal out of this because I believe if reconciliation is to happen not only do GCs have to own up to crimes against the TC community in the time between 1963-1974 but the TC community does too and in particular acknowledge that Turkey's intervention was a crime against the GC community. The first step is to acknowledge that Turkey's intervention was against the treaty of guarantee, the same way I as a GC acknowledge that the GC coup was against the treaty for attempting Enosis.

The difference here Alexis is that the pro-enosis coup was not something perpetrated by the GC community or its elected leadership, but by a fraction of outlaws that with the support of the Greek junta colonels managed to put the national guard under their control. It is not something the GC community initiated, provoked or invited, and in fact it was something it condemned, resisted and fought against. Nevertheless and irrespective of the circumstances under which it eventually collapsed, the fact remains that for the last 32 years we have no coupists in power and we have no enosis with Greece, things that would have been in violation of the 1960 treaties. What we have for the past 32 years is the violations of the treaties (and the UN Charter) by Turkey and the TCs, and not by Greece or the GCs. The coup (the violation or the illegality) was something that occurred but ended, and the fact remains that it doesn’t exist now. The Turkish invasion and occupation that was alleged by Turkey to have happened in response to it, continues.

Nevertheless, the Turkish invasion itself (not just its fait accomplices and the occupation) was illegal on another premise. It took place in violation of the UN Charter. The UN Charter prohibits military intervention in another country without prior approval of UN the UN Security Council. The UN Charter precedes any other international treaty such as the 1960 ones, and is regarded as the pinnacle of international law. Any provisions of a treaty that grant unilateral intervention rights for one country into another, without UN SC approval, are rented invalid by the Charter. The assumption that because a junta usurped Greek government violated the treaty and the UN Charter, this automatically gives the right to Turkey to also do the same and even worst -and to continue doing so even after the pre-text violation ended, Turkey’s continuing violations are therefore legitimised, is hilarious at least and such an assumption or theory doesn’t exist in law.