Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kartal_Aetos]

ok guys, the whole minority/majority thing will never work...its the main thing holding back the country's peace negotiations...

tc's will never be able to trust the gc's enough to give them majority...so long have the gc's been taught to hate tc's and giving people with hatred over the overs majority rule just would end up in chaos...

and by this, im not saying you guys are out to get tc's...lol...

just that there are many gc's that are...and if they come to power and teach gc youth to hate tc's, in time the country will fall to ruins with yet another civil war...this cant happen...

what u guys must understand is that there is mistrust there because of the past and it was kicked off by EOKA B, a gc militia...its wrong to say the gc's were equally killed as 1- u will have majority rule anyway and there is no threat of u being mistreated...and 2- tc's didnt attack the gc's until tc's were attacked...yes gc's were killed as well as tc's...but what do u expect? no retaliation? to sit back without fighting back? we are a peaceful people but our turkish genes have always made us warriors...we will fight when necessary...but we will not take the risk by giving gc's majority rule incase extremists do pop up once more...there is always the threat of extremists to both sides...equal status protects us from this threat...what could the gc's do if tc's had majority rule and an extremist party came to power? or even just had an influence politically? we'd all be f*cked...

so, as i have tried to explain...no1 wants to take that risk...no1 WILL take that risk...i am very pro-reunification person...but if we cant secure the safety of our people, what good is reunification?

[Piratis]

tc's will never be able to trust the gc's enough to give them majority...so long have the gc's been taught to hate tc's and giving people with hatred over the overs majority rule just would end up in chaos...

Nobody is teaching GCs to hate TCs apart from the Turkish flag that is drawn on Pentadaktilos and the Turkish soldiers standing on the cease fire line to remind us every day about the occupation.

what u guys must understand is that there is mistrust there because of the past and it was kicked off by EOKA B, a gc militia...its wrong to say the gc's were equally killed as 1- u will have majority rule anyway and there is no threat of u being mistreated...and 2- tc's didnt attack the gc's until tc's were attacked...yes gc's were killed as well as tc's...but what do u expect? no retaliation? to sit back without fighting back? we are a peaceful people but our turkish genes have always made us warriors...we will fight when necessary

Kartal, sorry but you are wrong.

The Turkish community was whipped into a frenzy by broadcasts from Turkey calling for the partition of Cyprus. Violence between the turks and Cypriots broke out in early June and climaxed when eight Greeks were massacred in a cornfield near the Turkish village of Geunyeli. Again, the British were forced into partitioning the two communities. At this stage, the British Army in Cyprus reached it highest number as more units arrived from mid-June. There were now twenty-six fighting units in Cyprus. In desperation, Fott ordered an island wide swoop and they arrested fifty turks and 1,500 Greeks. In under two months ninety-five civilians had been killed in the inter communal violence and many more injured.
http://britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/war.html

The above is not coming from Greek propaganda but from a British anti EOKA website.

So please stop trying to present Turkish Cypriots as the peace loving victims and the Greek Cypriots as evils. It was not like that. In fact if you take the whole history you will see that Greek Cypriots were the victims of Turks in most parts of our history.

...equal status protects us from this threat...what could the gc's do if tc's had majority rule and an extremist party came to power? or even just had an influence politically? we'd all be f*cked...

If TCs were the majority Cyprus would be part of Turkey. There is no doubt about this.

so, as i have tried to explain...no1 wants to take that risk...no1 WILL take that risk...i am very pro-reunification person...but if we cant secure the safety of our people, what good is reunification?

The problem is that it is not an option for you to take that risk or not.
I would also feel safer if I was driving alone in the streets so I would not risk that some crazy idiot would come and crash on me. This doesn't mean that I have the right to demand that nobody should be driving while I am so I will feel safe. The same is with your case. We can find ways that would make you feel as safe as possible as long as they do not violate the human and democratic rights of others. Nobody has the right to ask for such things.

The safety of all people will not be guaranteed by undemocratic constitutions and human rights violations. In fact such things can only generate frustration and anger from the ones that are discriminated against, and will lead to more problems.

The safety and security of people will be guaranteed by a constidution that will eliminate racist discriminations and will create common interests (instead of conflicting ones) for Cypriots as a whole.
Many countries had internal conflicts and civil wars. The solution in all of them was what I propose, and not undemocratic regimes and racist separations.

If there is a goodwill for a truly united |Cyprus for all Cypriots then we could begin a process with several transitional periods that would restore trust between the two communities and emphasize the common Cypriot identity.

If the aim is just a loose association between 2 mostly separate regions that will then develop into an official partition like Czechoslovakia or Serbia - Montenegro, then no solution will ever be found since Greek Cypriots will never accept such things.

[Alexis]

ok guys, the whole minority/majority thing will never work...its the main thing holding back the country's peace negotiations...

Actually no, it's the main thing that fuels the extremists arguments:

GC Extremist: "We are the majority, we should get all the say on the island"
TC Extremist: "We are the minority, we would be eliminated unless we are given a part of the island which excludes GCs"

tc's will never be able to trust the gc's enough to give them majority...so long have the gc's been taught to hate tc's and giving people with hatred over the overs majority rule just would end up in chaos...

But of course it is completely reasonable for GCs to give TCs political equality? My point is that compromise is needed and that by giving TCs political equality and thus ensuring that no extremist parties can get in, TCs should also share the island with GCs.

what u guys must understand is that there is mistrust there because of the past and it was kicked off by EOKA B, a gc militia...its wrong to say the gc's were equally killed as 1- u will have majority rule anyway and there is no threat of u being mistreated...and 2- tc's didnt attack the gc's until tc's were attacked...yes gc's were killed as well as tc's...but what do u expect? no retaliation? to sit back without fighting back? we are a peaceful people but our turkish genes have always made us warriors...we will fight when necessary...but we will not take the risk by giving gc's majority rule incase extremists do pop up once more...there is always the threat of extremists to both sides...equal status protects us from this threat...what could the gc's do if tc's had majority rule and an extremist party came to power? or even just had an influence politically? we'd all be f*cked...

With all due respect that's what both sides say. Anything we did was 'in response to' what the other side did first. It doesn't, never has and didn't in the case of Cyprus work that way. Everyone always claims the moral high ground, part of the reconciliation process is to acknowledge that you do not and that crimes were commited by both sides. Your statement, to a GC who lost relatives in the 1960s, is actually quite insulting as it sounds as though you are saying that my relatives deaths were somehow justified.

so, as i have tried to explain...no1 wants to take that risk...no1 WILL take that risk...i am very pro-reunification person...but if we cant secure the safety of our people, what good is reunification?

Precisely why it is both sides responsibility in a majority/minority situation to make unification work. Both sides have the ability to abuse their status as either minority or majority. In the 1960s we both did this and paid the consequences for 40 years. The current status quo can and will go on indefinitely unless we get together and make something happen.

[Kartal_Aetos]

u guys are missing the point completely...

alexis, i have never said we want a part of land that excludes gc's and we want it to ourselves...same to u piratis with ur driving anology...

the bottom line is that with unequal political powers, minority is always in danger...

it doesn't matter if we live fine for 1000 years like that...at some point there will inevitably be a fascist leader...if this is on the gc's, tc's could be wiped out...if its on the tc's, then they cant do anything...they are minority...cant wipe out majority...

piratis, stop classifying me as a turk...in turkish cypriot thanx...and actually who reinstated the greek orthodox papa as the voice of the GC people in cyprus after they conquered cyprus from their previous holders who treated GC's like crap? ottoman empire...turks havent done anything as bad as previous opressors of cyprus...they treated u better....if u class urself as a greek and not a greek cypriot and u wanna go further back then that we can...i dont care cos i am turkish cypriot, not turkish...

alexis, who didnt lose family in the war? tell me ONE person who didnt? i dont know any1! so stop feeling sorry for urself...i lost half my family when eoka b held a meeting in morphou, telling gc families to leave their lights on at night so that they know its a GC house and they raided the houses with lights off...so get over ur "im quite offended" crap cos ur not the only one!

as for whatever it says in any constitution...its only ink...u guys really think an extremist will listen to a peace of paper that tells them to respect the other ethnicity just because it says to? we all live in a lawful world and know all too well that most people are not law abiding citizens...so whats so different about a constitution???

and if there is a turkish flag on the pentadaktilos, did the TC's put it up there? no! so why hate the TC's? surely it would make u hate the turks?

and if u are pissed off about the soldiers on the make-shift border, why are there still greek soldiers there too? shouldn't i be pissed off about it too that it reminds me of the war? same situation...the problem is that ur only seeing one side of it...ur only seeing what ur politicians tell u...

[Kikapu]

I tell you something. You are not sincere! If you are sincere, you, the T/Cs, should demand every day that Turkey should grand the same rights that you want to maintain having in Cyprus, to the Kurdish citizens of Turkey. However, none of you does this. You acknowledge and promote one standard for Cyprus, and another standard for Turkey (and the rest of the world.) You maintain one set of logic for Turkey, because this is what suits you, and another set of logic for Cyprus, again because this is what suits you again. You are insincere and opportunistic! You do not stand for principles! You are unprincipled! You want yours to be yours and theirs to be yours again! And you call this your “kismet!” Your principle is the principle of the kismet, your kismet!

I ask you again, If in 1960 -when the British decided to grand Cyprus its independence, instead of the constitution they gave us, they had given us a constitution that was based on one-man-one-vote (like in Turkey and elsewere in the West,) and if they had not split the people of Cyprus on the basis of their language and religion but instead they regarded everybody a plain Cypriots; about which rights would you now be talking?

Kifeas,

Let me answer your last question first. The British did not give us "one man one vote" because they knew they could not trust Makarios. They barely trusted him with the 70%-30%, and despite all the protections that were placed in the Constitution, the British proved themselves to be right as no to have trusted Makarios, because we all know what has happened. To answer your question more directly, if the "one man one vote"was given to Makarios back in 1960, by 1961 Cyprus would have been part of Greece as the majority would have voted for it (remember, majority rules ) and the TC's would have been got rid of one way or another, and or become the "Turkish Cypriot Niggers" for the Greek Cypriots. We would have been segregated without rights and no future.

As far as your other question, that I'm being an opportunistic and a unprincipled person because I don't demand the same rights to be given to the Kurds, as I want for my self in Cyprus. I can't even get my own countrymen to give me what I want, what chance do I have to demand something from a foreign power to give their citizens. Personally, the Kurds should have their own land and independence. Since you have asked the question as to what Turkey should do for the Kurds, are you principled enough to allow me, what I want in Cyprus, as to what you want for the Kurds from Turkey or do you just want what's yours to be yours and what's mine to be yours also.

I cannot trust a majority rule by the Greek Cypriots with "one man one vote" today, anymore than the British did in 1960. I don't have to throw myself from a tall building to my death, to prove, there is gravity, and I don't have to jump into the deep end of a pool to drown, to prove there's no air for me down there to breath, and I don't have to have a majority rule with "one man one vote" in Cyprus to prove, that I will be committing a political suicide, because I already know the answers in advance.

[webmagus]

Let me answer your last question first. The British did not give us "one man one vote" because they knew they could not trust Makarios. They barely trusted him with the 70%-30%, and despite all the protections that were placed in the Constitution, the British proved themselves to be right as no to have trusted Makarios, because we all know what has happened. To answer your question more directly, if the "one man one vote"was given to Makarios back in 1960, by 1961 Cyprus would have been part of Greece as the majority would have voted for it (remember, majority rules ) and the TC's would have been got rid of one way or another, and or become the "Turkish Cypriot Niggers" for the Greek Cypriots. We would have been segregated without rights and no future.

I don’t agree what the TC’s would have been got rid of.

In Greece there is a Muslim minority and they do not have a problem.

Off course they did have a problem when the Junta takes the leadership but history is very strange.

If Makarios wasn’t a bullshitter (like Papadopoulos and Ntektash) most probably there would not have a problem in the G.Papandreou government and the continue of them.

I can bring you info directly of the book of a minister of Greece (P Garoufalias) of that times who blame the GC’s for the instability of their country.

In fact he directly point Makarios actions that he was put them in crises with out their will.

Makarios was the most unwanted “politician” in Europe.

I’ve comments from the most of the leaders at that time who was telling for him what he was a dangerous arrogant coming from the theocracy of the past.

There was not democracy in Cyprus in those days. There was a theocracy dictatorship similar to the worst examples of the past and this is what everyone (except as) realizes.

I know many examples of people (GC’s) who didn’t accept his dictatorship who have beaten by his personally army (who illegally supplied with arms from the USSR block).

No one was able to speak against him there was a total control on the information.

Like what happens in our stupid days.

Anyone who speaks against his (Papadopoulos) fascistic tactics and his criminal past he is a traitor.

In Greece at G.Papandreou days was a true democracy and the TC’s they wouldn’t have any problem as Greek Muslim citizens.

But as I say history is strange and nothing can be told for sure about this subject.

As far as your other question, that I'm being an opportunistic and a unprincipled person because I don't demand the same rights to be given to the Kurds, as I want for my self in Cyprus. I can't even get my own countrymen to give me what I want, what chance do I have to demand something from a foreign power to give their citizens. Personally, the Kurds should have their own land and independence. Since you have asked the question as to what Turkey should do for the Kurds, are you principled enough to allow me, what I want in Cyprus, as to what you want for the Kurds from Turkey or do you just want what's yours to be yours and what's mine to be yours also.

I cannot trust a majority rule by the Greek Cypriots with "one man one vote" today, anymore than the British did in 1960. I don't have to throw myself from a tall building to my death, to prove, there is gravity, and I don't have to jump into the deep end of a pool to drown, to prove there's no air for me down there to breath, and I don't have to have a majority rule with "one man one vote" in Cyprus to prove, that I will be committing a political suicide, because I already know the answers in advance.

You point of view is understandable from the reason persons.

If we are so stupid to vote a criminal to be our president you are complete justified to not trust us. END.

[Kikapu]

Thank you for standing tall and not deny your loyalty to your past and present criminal heroes.

I defend no criminal. I have never supported Grivas, Samson, or any EOKA B or other Greek Cypriot extremist that had committed crimes.

However for you apparently GC leader = criminal. If a GC leader wanted democracy in Cyprus, with Cypriots, and not the colonialists, running our country for you is a criminal. Let me tell you something Kikapu, in just about every other country the ones who are condemned are those that fought on the side of the colonialists (e.g. the loyalists in the USA) and not those that fought against them.


You support apartheid and discrimination based on race and be sure that such outrageous things will not be accepted. The 18% of TCs are by definition a minority. Aren't the blacks in the USA a minority in their own country? Aren't the Kurds in Turkey a minority in their own country? Aren't the Turks in Bulgaria a minority in their own country? Aren't the (30%) Russians in Latvia a minority in their own country.
Do you know any ethnic group which is much less in numbers than another ethnic group that is not a minority?


We have the saying "Ipen o gadaros tou petinou kefala". Meaning that you demand the punishment of GCs because of the crimes they committed, forgetting that you had committed 100 times more crimes against us. So why should you be rewarded on our expense?

Piratis,

After reading severals posts from the newcomer "webmagus" on other threads, there isn't much I can really add as to what your beloved heroes have done to Cyprus and it's citizens, including the "old dog" PappaD, but you accept all this because he was Democratically elected, and you want me to share your values with the types of persons you support to lead Cyprus. In a word "no thanks". The truth is Piratis, you can never tell the whole truth, you only tell part of the truth that suits your agenda and your propaganda. If I made the claim that you're part of PappaD's propaganda machine to issue half truths and misinformation, I wonder how wrong I would be ? If you were old enough, I would have said, you must have gone to same school as George Bush, "the school of liers" since you both never want to tell the whole truth. There is a criminal that you don't like, but have a lot in common with.

Once again, you tie the TC's with the Turks, for the past crimes agaist the Greek Cypriots going back 300 years, and each time you do that, you lose credibility by trying to hide and side step the crimes done to the TC's from 1963 until the invasion of Turkey. We would have liked to have been saved by our own countrymen during these times, but your heroes were to busy enjoying the 97% of the land that was ill gotten, that did not belong to them. Did PappaD raise an objection to the ill treatment of the TC's, or was he just "following orders".

I have lived most of my life in a "one man one vote" system, so don't try to paint me as being against Democracy, like you painted me as a Nazi for disagreeing with you politically. When I can trust the Democratically run system, even with it's flaws, I can live with whom ever is elected. I have been doing it since Bush the criminal has stolen the elections in Florida 2000. But I trust the system to correct itself politically. What did the majority try to do in Cyprus, they tried to do away with me, so that I won't be around to vote next time. If you did not trust the 70%-30% system to work for all Cypriots in 1960, why would I think, you will do much more for the TC's, if you had 82%-18%. Would you accept your odds, if the situation were reversed, given your past history.

I'm glad you mentioned the blacks in America. It was the "one man one vote" system that kept them slaves for another 80 years after the Independence and the Constitution was written, until the end of the Civil war in 1865, and then it took another 100 years to be allowed to vote and have civil rights. And yes, they should have been given their own land to rule themselves, at least within their own State, much like the Mormons have in Utah. After the slavery was abolished, the 4 million blacks were promised 40 Acres of land and a mule each, but it never happened. You can't always trust the majority to do the right thing. Then there were the 200,000 Japanese Americans that were sent to internment camps, as prisoners after the Pearl Harbour attack in 1941, who had lost all their rights and property. Only about 20,000 surviving persons got some money 50 years later. You can't always trust the majority to do the right thing. If you can't trust me with half the country "politically speaking" don't expect me to trust you with whole of the country, because that's what would happen in essence, with a majority rule.

You have suggested the other day to have a rotating presidency, that every 5th president can be a TC' person. Are you willing to bend the rules of Democracy to say to the GC's, this time only TC's can vote, so that they can have a TC for president once every 20 years or so. That's very advance thinking coming from you, but of course, there's always a catch isn't there Piratis. You would have the legislators ( law makers ) have plenty of power to over rule any veto a TC president makes, since the GC's would be 82%-18%. Agree to make the legislator to pass any bill or veto any bill at 95%, and we can talk about it as a "one man one vote" system.

Time for you to stop going any further than 1960 when we talk about crimes against Cypriots by Cypriots, because you then start talking about Turks from Turkey. Stop associating past crimes by Turkey to the Turkish Cypriots. If our compatriots did not miss treat us, we would not have needed Turkeys help. It's better to make a deal with the devil then end up dead.

[Alexis]

alexis, i have never said we want a part of land that excludes gc's and we want it to ourselves...same to u piratis with ur driving anology...

I never said, you did, I said TC extremists do. The TRNC unfortunately does do this and that is why it will not be recognised. Having said that most TC I have met do want unification and do not insist on excluding GCs.

it doesn't matter if we live fine for 1000 years like that...at some point there will inevitably be a fascist leader...if this is on the gc's, tc's could be wiped out...if its on the tc's, then they cant do anything...they are minority...cant wipe out majority...

Sure, but of course you must realise that just simply because the GCs are a majority they should not be punished for this either. This is why we have to have constitutional safeguards in place.
This is where the minority can start to abuse their status by making their minority status into a stick with which to beat the majority, just as the majority can use their majority status to oppress the minority. I'm not saying that this is what TCs are doing, but a fair balance must be sought that is fair to both communities.

alexis, who didnt lose family in the war? tell me ONE person who didnt? i dont know any1! so stop feeling sorry for urself...i lost half my family when eoka b held a meeting in morphou, telling gc families to leave their lights on at night so that they know its a GC house and they raided the houses with lights off...so get over ur "im quite offended" crap cos ur not the only one!

Sounds like you're feeling sorry for yourself as well! Of course everyone lost family, that wasn't my point at all. What offends me is your insistance that GC started everything and that as such all TC crimes against GCs are somehow justified, or 'lesser crimes' than those of GC who started things off. I condemn all those terrorists who killed innocent people back then. What we must realise is that murder is never ok irrespective of who commits it. I never said that your relatives deaths were any less tragic than mine so let's not fly off the handle.

as for whatever it says in any constitution...its only ink...u guys really think an extremist will listen to a peace of paper that tells them to respect the other ethnicity just because it says to? we all live in a lawful world and know all too well that most people are not law abiding citizens...so whats so different about a constitution???

So what do you suggest? We all live on this island, and we all have a right to it as Cypriots. Clearly the status quo can go on for a while yet but clearly it benefits no-one in the longterm.

and if u are pissed off about the soldiers on the make-shift border, why are there still greek soldiers there too? shouldn't i be pissed off about it too that it reminds me of the war? same situation...the problem is that ur only seeing one side of it...ur only seeing what ur politicians tell u...

Quite right! It's all about seeing that our grievances are actually very similar. Reconciliation is about saying we're sorry for what we did to each other. But part of that is acknowledging that we did do bad things to each other that weren't justified. I am truly sorry for the tragic loss of your family, but also spare a thought for others who also died needlessly.

[Kartal_Aetos]

i dont get it alexis...im actually confused...dont take this the wrong way but it seems u are defending the point that there is a need for equality....but that this is brought about by majority/minority?

i dont think GC's would be punished if given equal say as the TC community...they would simply be...equal?

i think the problem is that i am thinking more macro and u are thinking more micro...u want a micro-equality whereby every man has an equal voting influence as the next and i would like a macro-equality wherby the two communities as a whole have equal voting influence...

but like i said before...i dont see a secure future for TC's living as a minority in our own land where anything we say can be over ruled...

i dont believe there will never be another fascist grivas or samson etc...afterall, they were not the first and only...

[webmagus]

No one can support Pirates bullshits in a serious conversation.

That’s why no one in Europe is open to Nazis of this kind.

They only accept TC’s as a minority this is far away out of reality.

TC’s are a community and by the law.

Off course this kind of brainless fouls are far away from reality
(they live in a metaphysical dream build with bullshits) .

They believe what the today’s political data is fake creation of USA and UK they can’t realize what the TC’s have the right to protect their community (like Montenegro).

The USSR also has accepted the TC’s as a community and this is the facking reality.

And the whole world accepts TC’s as a community.

They can see only conspiracy and metaphysical bullshits.

They are unable to deal with reality.

Only some brainless fouls who are far away from reality can believe what TC’s haven’t the right to be a community.

Anything else is pure fascistic illness.

Democracy for BRAINLESS fascist is only their point of view.

THERE IS NOT ONE serious politician who can support this bullshits.

All the GC’s political parties except Evrokotes officially accept TC’s as a community.

Everything else is far away from reality and are spread out to some fouls to achieve the division.

There is not democracy in these stupid thoughts, there are just nazistic bullshits.

And this will never be our official political line because the Europeans will drop dead from laughing and we will become the comedians of political and democratical jokes.