Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

I will take you explanation on face value as to the stupid question but seeing it was me who askedit then it appears that you were directing the insult at the author which was me but lets leave that.

When I argue my rights under our partnership agreement I do not intend to demote the minority rights of Kurds, Blacks, Turks in Greece etc who you know full well are still voicing their objections are are discrimnated against. Is that what you want us TCs to experience under the heavy hand of the GCs population with who we have a partnership agreement which you yourself cling onto so dearly today in 2006? Will that make you happy, will you raise your voice every time a TC is discriminated gainst or will you just read in the paper and say they should not happen and turn over the page while the "minority" TCs have fight for their rights? We want safety guards that will protect all both our rights under a partnership which clearly defines the rules and deters exploitation of one community over the other.

[andri_cy]

No I do not want TC's or blacks or women or anyone to be disciminated against. I actually try do a lot where I am about that. If I see someone discriminated against I do not care who he is or where he is from. I will voice my objection pretty loud and make noise about it. You should do the same. It is no one's fault that the TC's are a minority and there are more of them than TC's in Cyprus. Those are the facts of life. But you are clinging to that agreement almost like having it makes it so that the case of the TC's being mistreated is more important than other minorities being mistreated because the TCs have an agreement. My point here is not that TCs have no rights or that you are less important or whatever else. My argument is as a rebattle to all those that say that TCs were being mistreated and the GCs did nothing about it and Turkey had to intervene(which might be accurate) but what is any of these people doing while that their motherland is doing to the Kurds what the TCs are saying the Greek Side did to them? Do you raise your voice every time a Kurd is discriminate against even though they are not lucky enough to have an agreement, do just read in the paper and say they should not happen and turn over the page or do you read about it and dont even care? Those arguments can go both ways. Issy made a statement saying that he was against the treatment that the Kurds receive. All we got from you is some argument that they have no agreement. SO whats your actual position on it?

[Viewpoint]

Although I sympathise and would argue for equal non discriminatory rights for all be they Kurds, Blacks, Turks in Greece, etc you are still missing the point. Let me try and explain it this way, the Serbs and Montenegros had all the freedoms you talk about am I right? this goes without saying. But they also agreed a constitution to remain united and run the country together, this is a partnership agreement this is different form the "norms" you talk about do the Kurds have the same agreements as the Serbs? between them and the Turks? No they do not, they lost those rights (which are questionable) many years ago and made the mistake of settling for just minority rights which you are trying to impose on me in a Greek run Greek state, well it aint gonna happen we will fight you all the way.

You are talking about the everyday rights that everyone should enjoy on a day to day basis which I do not dispute, I am talking about the right to political equality and the right to run a united Cyprus as equal partners (which the 1960 agreements put in place),without GCs or TCs dominating each other, please avoid trying to compare apples with pears or clouding the real issue.

[Piratis]

So you agree you signed them dont give any excuses, your signature is on a partnership agreement with us, which obviously you have no intention of making work.

Our signature and yours (and Turkey's, Greece's and Britain's) is not just for any partnership, it is for something very specific, the 1960 agreements. You are the ones who refuse the return to those agreements because you want for yourself more and for GCs less than those agreements. On the contrary we have said many times that you should accept legality and the return to those agreements. You refuse and you insist on illegality.

It also mentioned something about a TC Vice President, it appears hypocritical on the one hand you say the 1960 agreements were and unfair and forced upon you yet today you cing onto the so dearly, could it be because they are solely administered by GCs and you have the GC state you long for.

Give us back the 1/3rd of the island that you stole from us, and get your vice president and everything else that was agreed in 1960. How can you ask for your legal rights when at the same time you deny ours? Either we all get our rights according to those agreements or non does.

You have this problem with winning and losing we dont share this mentality, all we want is live in our own country and not be ruled by GCs.

And all I want is to live in my country with democracy and human rights and without foreign armies. If you want a country without GCs then go somewhere else. Cyprus has an 82% Greek Cypriot majority over the whole island for 1000s of years and you can not just go and ethnically cleanse people because you want a country just for yourselves.

Get over it Piratis we are you partners we are just not another minortity as the example you provide, if these worldwide minorities can produce an agreement like our 1960 agreements then by all means they shoud demand more and Im 100% sure they would.

you are just another minority. Get over your superiority complex that "one Turks equals the whole world". Each TC person is equal to each GC person, and TCs are much less. That makes TCs a minority by definition. Stop trying to go against common sense.

Dear Piratis for reasons now beyond our control all that changed in 1974, the TRNC recognized or not, legal or illegal is here to stay until a time we can sit down and agree a new agreement that will either unite or divide us, thats the bottom line the rest is just us going around in circles. You did this I did that, you did this more and shit like that. If we want an amicable solution where we can both be happy we have to compromise and create a trusting atmosphere as long as these lements do not exist we will be talking about the same issues for a very very very very long time to come.

What exists in our island is the illegal Turkish occupation. Funny that you say "we have to compromise" and then in the same posts you refuse to give up anything because it was your right as agreed in the 1960 agreements.

You expect from us to compromise things that are our rights according to the 1960 but you refuse to make such compromises yourselves. So what "compromises" are you going to make? Give back something that you stole and does not belong to you in the first place???
If you expect GCs to make compromises from their legal rights then you should also be willing to make equivalent compromises from your own legal rights.

[andri_cy]

Although I sympathise and would argue for equal non discriminatory rights for all be they Kurds, Blacks, Turks in Greece, etc you are still missing the point. Let me try and explain it this way, the Serbs and Montenegros had all the freedoms you talk about am I right? this goes without saying. But they also agreed a constitution to remain united and run the country together, this is a partnership agreement this is different form the "norms" you talk about do the Kurds have the same agreements as the Serbs? between them and the Turks? No they do not, they lost those rights (which are questionable) many years ago and made the mistake of settling for just minority rights which you are trying to impose on me in a Greek run Greek state, well it aint gonna happen we will fight you all the way.

You are talking about the everyday rights that everyone should enjoy on a day to day basis which I do not dispute, I am talking about the right to political equality and the right to run a united Cyprus as equal partners (which the 1960 agreements put in place),without GCs or TCs dominating each other, please avoid trying to compare apples with pears or clouding the real issue.

OK so what exactly are you talking about? The whole voting thing? There are minorities in countries all over the world. Do you see the blacks having 2 votes for each person thats black and voting? Do you see them fighting for soemthing like that? No they are not because it is not democratic. No one says it is comfortable or even fair to you that GCs are a majority. Fortunately or unfortunately that is how it is. You should have the same right as any Cypriot: to go and vote. That is your right and responsibilty actually. And the vice president is supposed to be TC according to the agreements which I dont see anything wrong with. But if you go and vote and I go and vote, how democratic is it for your vote to be counted 2 times and mine once? What kind of twisted democracy is that? Show me another country that has that. Parts of the agreement are sensible but that is not. How does that make us equal? Doesnt that make your vote count more than mine? So we will call that equal as long as you like it? Equal rights mean equal rights.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Our signature and yours (and Turkey's, Greece's and Britain's) is not just for any partnership, it is for something very specific, the 1960 agreements. You are the ones who refuse the return to those agreements because you want for yourself more and for GCs less than those agreements. On the contrary we have said many times that you should accept legality and the return to those agreements. You refuse and you insist on illegality.

Really Piratis, these agreements did not work back then and will not work today you yourself complain about imbalances in favor of the TCs and I argue that they will not protect my being excluded in the future as it is today. Move on we need a new agreement which we have been unable to agree since 1963, its not a one way street we are both as stubborn as each other.

Give us back the 1/3rd of the island that you stole from us, and get your vice president and everything else that was agreed in 1960. How can you ask for your legal rights when at the same time you deny ours? Either we all get our rights according to those agreements or non does.

If this is what we mutually agree in a comprehensive solution then I definately agree. But we have not been able to agree it have we?

And all I want is to live in my country with democracy and human rights and without foreign armies. If you want a country without GCs then go somewhere else. Cyprus has an 82% Greek Cypriot majority over the whole island for 1000s of years and you can not just go and ethnically cleanse people because you want a country just for yourselves.

I have no problem living on the same island with GCs so dont tell me to give live elsewhere, we are not going anywhere we are here to stay, you can go live under Greek rule if you wish but we will notbe forced to do the same. You maybe the numerical majority but we are 2 equal partners trying to form a new partnership that both our communities can commit to 100%. the sooner you come to terms with this idea the better.

you are just another minority. Get over your superiority complex that "one Turks equals the whole world". Each TC person is equal to each GC person, and TCs are much less. That makes TCs a minority by definition. Stop trying to go against common sense.

We maybe numerically a minority but we are still your equal partner (eg Serbia and Montenegro.)

What exists in our island is the illegal Turkish occupation. Funny that you say "we have to compromise" and then in the same posts you refuse to give up anything because it was your right as agreed in the 1960 agreements.

You expect from us to compromise things that are our rights according to the 1960 but you refuse to make such compromises yourselves. So what "compromises" are you going to make? Give back something that you stole and does not belong to you in the first place???
If you expect GCs to make compromises from their legal rights then you should also be willing to make equivalent compromises from your own legal rights.

Funny you talk about how the 1960 agrrements were unfair but so dearly cling onto them today. You cannot steal something which partially belongs to you in the first place and yes both sides have to compromise otherwise we will continue with the current status quo, trust has to be established and we have to work together in order to show both communites that this can be done and that their is nothing to fear and that all people living in a united Cyprus will be treated the same without discrimination or hinderence. At the same time we need safe guards to ensure that the country is run jointly and that one community does not force its will upon the other, repeating the mistakes of the past.

[Viewpoint]

Although I sympathise and would argue for equal non discriminatory rights for all be they Kurds, Blacks, Turks in Greece, etc you are still missing the point. Let me try and explain it this way, the Serbs and Montenegros had all the freedoms you talk about am I right? this goes without saying. But they also agreed a constitution to remain united and run the country together, this is a partnership agreement this is different form the "norms" you talk about do the Kurds have the same agreements as the Serbs? between them and the Turks? No they do not, they lost those rights (which are questionable) many years ago and made the mistake of settling for just minority rights which you are trying to impose on me in a Greek run Greek state, well it aint gonna happen we will fight you all the way.

You are talking about the everyday rights that everyone should enjoy on a day to day basis which I do not dispute, I am talking about the right to political equality and the right to run a united Cyprus as equal partners (which the 1960 agreements put in place),without GCs or TCs dominating each other, please avoid trying to compare apples with pears or clouding the real issue.

OK so what exactly are you talking about? The whole voting thing? There are minorities in countries all over the world. Do you see the blacks having 2 votes for each person thats black and voting? Do you see them fighting for soemthing like that? No they are not because it is not democratic. No one says it is comfortable or even fair to you that GCs are a majority. Fortunately or unfortunately that is how it is. You should have the same right as any Cypriot: to go and vote. That is your right and responsibilty actually. And the vice president is supposed to be TC according to the agreements which I dont see anything wrong with. But if you go and vote and I go and vote, how democratic is it for your vote to be counted 2 times and mine once? What kind of twisted democracy is that? Show me another country that has that. Parts of the agreement are sensible but that is not. How does that make us equal? Doesnt that make your vote count more than mine? So we will call that equal as long as you like it? Equal rights mean equal rights.

Go study the old constitution of Serbia and Montenegro.

We will not be a minority in our our own country run by the numerically larger GCs.

[andri_cy]

Why would I want to study the consitution of some other country that I have no ties or affiliation with?

[Piratis]

Go study the old constitution of Serbia and Montenegro.

We will not be a minority in our our own country run by the numerically larger GCs.

First of all Viewpoint, Montenegrians own Montenegro. You do not own northern Cyprus, in fact 82% of the population of norther Cyprus are Greek Cypriots, who have now been ehtnically cleansed by the Turkish army.

Secondly, Serbia and Montenegro have now split up. As I said in another post (or rather as your own Serdar Denctash said) this confederation/association of two mostly independent countries that you demand (like Annan plan) is just a stepping stone for official partition. Telling us about Serbia and Montenegro is yet another confirmation for this.

Really Piratis, these agreements did not work back then and will not work today you yourself complain about imbalances in favor of the TCs and I argue that they will not protect my being excluded in the future as it is today. Move on we need a new agreement which we have been unable to agree since 1963, its not a one way street we are both as stubborn as each other.

So if the imbalance of the 1960 agreements was in favor of TCs now we should change them and make them even more in favor of TCs??? Were is the logic in that?

If this is what we mutually agree in a comprehensive solution then I definately agree. But we have not been able to agree it have we?

You do not agree because you have 40.000 troops illegally occupying RoC and you are trying to force on us your outrageous demands.

I have no problem living on the same island with GCs so dont tell me to give live elsewhere, we are not going anywhere we are here to stay, you can go live under Greek rule if you wish but we will notbe forced to do the same. You maybe the numerical majority but we are 2 equal partners trying to form a new partnership that both our communities can commit to 100%. the sooner you come to terms with this idea the better.

All Cypriots should be equal citizens. The times of apartheid are over Viewpoint.

You cannot steal something which partially belongs to you in the first place

Really? So if me and you co-own something and I take it just for myself is not stealing??

both sides have to compromise otherwise we will continue with the current status quo

So far you only ask from compromises from our side. What are your compromises? To give back to us part of what belongs to us anyways?
Would you accept the same kind of "compromises" from us? (e.i accepting that you will get only part of what you legally owned with 1960 agreements)

trust has to be established and we have to work together in order to show both communites that this can be done and that their is nothing to fear and that all people living in a united Cyprus will be treated the same without discrimination or hinderence.

This is what I always say.

At the same time we need safe guards to ensure that the country is run jointly and that one community does not force its will upon the other, repeating the mistakes of the past.

The country should be run by all Cypriots as a whole in a democratic way, just like every other country is run. Cyprus should take examples from other multi-ethnic countries, and there are many. Unfortunately your favorite example seems to be the former apartheid of South Africa. Please allow us not to want such thing for our country.

[Natty]

Hey, I want to know why TC's are so scared of GC's "running" the country and "ruling" over them, don't get me wrong of course I beleive in equality of all cypriots, but It seems that many TC's are terrified that if Cyprus is unified they will be mistreated by the GC's?? Of course I understand that the Intercommunal fighting killed TC's, but it also killed a similar number of GC's, it was a few extremest's on each side and people fueled by tension and mistrust that had been ignited by people that didn't want peace whithin Cyprus...so many episodes were provoked, like the bombs planted by the TMT and blamed on the Greeks, so they could "prove" greeks and Turks could not live together, it proves that we can live together however, I mean if they had to provike attacks then what does that show.........also the fact that thousands didn't die show's that we can....I have always been told that the Tc's are almost the same as Gc's apart from religion and (to a certain extent) language...Also to respect and love them, as we are both Cypriots, not that you should love and respect just Cypriots......

Peace!!