Cyprus-Forum.com

[Issy1956]

Kifeas,
You are factually correct in stating that the deal was essentially between the major powers involved Greece, Turkey and Britian with the USA in the background) with their (military defence) interests as their primary consideration and the inolvement of the people who would have to live with the agreement the GC and TC's having to accept what the big boys dictated. That having been said it was a choice of independence (without enosis) or taksim. An unpalletable choice maybe but one which was made. Having made it you should try and make it work.
I have never said that you cant review and change working arrangements in the light new circumstances and there is always room for improvements but the Greco-Turkish republic was never given a chance to work.

[Kikapu]

I will answer the questions posed by Kifeas and Piratis later----I promise!

[cypezokyli]

Can you imagine any independent country (e.g. UK, Turkey etc) that they will accept to have constitution that they do not want because some outsiders want to force it on them?

ofcource.
there are so many countries that had / have a constitution from the outside and / or forced on them. in general is countries who lost wars , or they won wars with the help of others. a number changed it , a number suffered from it , for some others it worked just fine

I am banking my head on the wall right now.

Cypezokyli, what is the above that you wrote supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that no matter if something is forced upon us, we should abide by it because we are small and week, and also because others have taken this path too? Tell us what you meant please. What was your objective in saying the above?

i just realised that this can be interpreted for the AP as well.
my point was an answering to piratis , about the 1960 agreements , and "why they were forced on us" ?

it doesnot mean that agree that constitutions are forced on people from the outside. what i was pointing out was that this happenned to a number of countries throughout history. it didnot happen to us exclusively. so , answering to piratis , "yes i can imagine countries accpting a constitution from outside". there are countries out there ho did that. and i am talking about that specific point inhistory , where colonial powers decided for the future of the decolonised states as if it was their property.
th epoint i am trying to make (always regarding the 1960 agreements) is not so much if they were forced from the outside (which we all know they were) , but what was the best we could do without them.
today we should ask ourselves concerning those agreements:
where they really that unfair (in comparison to what we are negotiating?)
where they really not-functionable ?
was functionality the problem - or not willingness to make them work ?
did we follow the best way in our attempt to change them ?
where they so bad that we ended loosing half our country for them ?

[Viewpoint]

Can you imagine any independent country (e.g. UK, Turkey etc) that they will accept to have constitution that they do not want because some outsiders want to force it on them?

ofcource.
there are so many countries that had / have a constitution from the outside and / or forced on them. in general is countries who lost wars , or they won wars with the help of others. a number changed it , a number suffered from it , for some others it worked just fine

I am banking my head on the wall right now.

Cypezokyli, what is the above that you wrote supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that no matter if something is forced upon us, we should abide by it because we are small and week, and also because others have taken this path too? Tell us what you meant please. What was your objective in saying the above?

You hate it when someone challenges your arguements, its either your way or noway, pah what mentality.

[Viewpoint]

Do the Kurds have partnership agreements like our 1960s agreements???

Talk about you thinking you have a monopoly in human rights.
Why do you think they have to have any agreement to be treated right?

You are not asnwering the question but avoiding it. We had agreed a partnership have the Kurds agreed such a partnership with Turkey, the answer is no. So your arguements fall flat when you say we are no different from them. If they have such concrete agreements let them put their arguements forward and hopefully in time they will convince the world and Turkey that they to should have either a partnership deal or even have self determination rights to break away from Turkey and of course other countires they promote to having the right to take a piece of.

[Viewpoint]

Yes, it is a fact that the 1960 agreements made by the British were giving to the TC minority things that no other minority has.

So you agree you signed them dont give any excuses, your signature is on a partnership agreement with us, which obviously you have no intention of making work.

So it would be a good idea to stop the illegalities and return to those agreements, you have every right to do so, and it would be the best thing you could ever do for yourselves.

That what we have been trying to negotiate since 1963.

Those agreements also talk about a unitary state, a GC president etc.
The same way you don't want to give up something that you earned with those agreements, we are not going to give up anything more either. Fair?

It also mentioned something about a TC Vice President, it apears hypocritical on the one hand you say the 1960 agreements were and unfair and forced upon you yet today you cing onto the so dearly, could it be because they are solely administered by GCs and you have the GC state you long for.

Or maybe you think that you should gain on our loss because you have the tanks of Turkey behind you? FORGET ABOUT IT. As long as you insist on winning on our loss you will come out losers as well, and then you will be crying about "embargoes" and your standard of living in your 3rd world pseudo puppet state.

You have this problem with winning and losing we dont share this mentality, all we want is live in our own country and not be ruled by GCs.

These are some minorities: Blacks in USA, Russians in Latvia, Kurds in Turkey, Basques in Spain, Turks in Germany, Turks in Bulgaria etc.

Get over it Piratis we are you partners we are just not another minortity as the example you provide, if these worldwide minorities can produce an agreement like our 1960 agreements then by all means they shoud demand more and Im 100% sure they would.

ALL minorities no matter in which country they are they should have the same kind of rights. Each citizen belonging to a minority should be equal to a citizen that belongs to a majority, the religion, culture etc of a minority should be respected and equally protected by the sate etc.

I agree but we are not just another mininority never have been never will be the sooner you get your head around this issue th better for everyone.

Beyond that some minorities also have their own regions. Kurds in Turkey and Basques in Spain for example. Since these minorities own a separate part of the country, then having autonomy or even independence could be logical.

But TCs do not own a separate part of the country. Asking for a separate part just for TCs is just as absurd as asking that all European and Asian Americans should be ethnically cleansed from one part of the USA so black Americans can have their own autonomous region.

Autonomy or independence is given to the people of an area that are the legal majority. TCs are just the 18% of the legal population of the northern part of Cyprus, so how can they demand that this part of land falls within their "self -determination"? Self-determination is about determining what your own, not what is owned by a others to the most part.

If you want some part of land to have self determination upon it and you don't want to share it with us with your proportionate power, then go buy your own exclusive land somewhere else. Tell Turkey to give you a part of their country. You can't demand that we should be ethnically cleansed from the land that we have been the great majority for 3500 years so you will have autonomy over that land!

As long as you have such demands peace will never come.

Dear Piratis for reasons now beyond our control all that changed in 1974, the TRNC recognized or not, legal or illegal is here to stay until a time we can sit down and agree a new agreement that will either unite or divide us, thats the bottom line the rest is just us going around in circles. You did this I did that, you did this more and shit like that. If we want an amicable solution where we can both be happy we have to compromise and create a trusting atmosphere as long as these lements do not exist we will be talking about the same issues for a very very very very long time to come.

[cypezokyli]

Can you imagine any independent country (e.g. UK, Turkey etc) that they will accept to have constitution that they do not want because some outsiders want to force it on them?

ofcource.
there are so many countries that had / have a constitution from the outside and / or forced on them. in general is countries who lost wars , or they won wars with the help of others. a number changed it , a number suffered from it , for some others it worked just fine

I am banking my head on the wall right now.

Cypezokyli, what is the above that you wrote supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that no matter if something is forced upon us, we should abide by it because we are small and week, and also because others have taken this path too? Tell us what you meant please. What was your objective in saying the above?

You hate it when someone challenges your arguements, its either your way or noway, pah what mentality.

common vp , you are not the only who can ask for clarrifications.
besides in the above i didnot challange kifeas

[andri_cy]

Do the Kurds have partnership agreements like our 1960s agreements???

Talk about you thinking you have a monopoly in human rights.
Why do you think they have to have any agreement to be treated right?

You are not asnwering the question but avoiding it. We had agreed a partnership have the Kurds agreed such a partnership with Turkey, the answer is no. So your arguements fall flat when you say we are no different from them. If they have such concrete agreements let them put their arguements forward and hopefully in time they will convince the world and Turkey that they to should have either a partnership deal or even have self determination rights to break away from Turkey and of course other countires they promote to having the right to take a piece of.

I shouldnt have to answer the question because it is stupid. No one should need an agreement of any sort to have rights. So you had an agreement yes. They do not. That means that you are better race or bunch of people than them? I certainly would hope not. Everyone is equal. The one who is avoiding to answer is you. You are whining because your rights are not recognized and you are isolated and you are suffering but you could care less that Turkey is doing worse to the Kurds because they do not have a signed agreement. Please give me a break.

[Viewpoint]

Do the Kurds have partnership agreements like our 1960s agreements???

Talk about you thinking you have a monopoly in human rights.
Why do you think they have to have any agreement to be treated right?

You are not asnwering the question but avoiding it. We had agreed a partnership have the Kurds agreed such a partnership with Turkey, the answer is no. So your arguements fall flat when you say we are no different from them. If they have such concrete agreements let them put their arguements forward and hopefully in time they will convince the world and Turkey that they to should have either a partnership deal or even have self determination rights to break away from Turkey and of course other countires they promote to having the right to take a piece of.

I shouldnt have to answer the question because it is stupid. No one should need an agreement of any sort to have rights. So you had an agreement yes. They do not. That means that you are better race or bunch of people than them? I certainly would hope not. Everyone is equal. The one who is avoiding to answer is you. You are whining because your rights are not recognized and you are isolated and you are suffering but you could care less that Turkey is doing worse to the Kurds because they do not have a signed agreement. Please give me a break.

andri thank you for the compliment, but i am neither stupid or avoiding the question you know full well that having such agreements like ours is a partnership which ensures that we are both involved in the running of our country and not left to chance, manipulation or domination by either side. The Kurds or blacks do not have such an agreement but the Montnegros did, thats the difference do you now understand where I am coming from? if you should need further clarification feel free to ask but not in such and insulting fashion, your burying your head in the sand and saying that all minorities have rights does not solve anything or make the problem go away, we are your partners on this island like it or not and we should rule together not one over the other and things left to chance which of course will over time work in favor of the numerical larger GC. ıf you have probelsm digesting this then please feel free to persuade your leaders to continue to persue their current policies of cementing the division which is evidently what we "Cypriots" deserve as we have no vision, will, ability or compromise to resolve anything.

[andri_cy]

Do the Kurds have partnership agreements like our 1960s agreements???

Talk about you thinking you have a monopoly in human rights.
Why do you think they have to have any agreement to be treated right?

You are not asnwering the question but avoiding it. We had agreed a partnership have the Kurds agreed such a partnership with Turkey, the answer is no. So your arguements fall flat when you say we are no different from them. If they have such concrete agreements let them put their arguements forward and hopefully in time they will convince the world and Turkey that they to should have either a partnership deal or even have self determination rights to break away from Turkey and of course other countires they promote to having the right to take a piece of.

I shouldnt have to answer the question because it is stupid. No one should need an agreement of any sort to have rights. So you had an agreement yes. They do not. That means that you are better race or bunch of people than them? I certainly would hope not. Everyone is equal. The one who is avoiding to answer is you. You are whining because your rights are not recognized and you are isolated and you are suffering but you could care less that Turkey is doing worse to the Kurds because they do not have a signed agreement. Please give me a break.

andri thank you for the compliment, but i am neither stupid or avoiding the question you know full well that having such agreements like ours is a partnership which ensures that we are both involved in the running of our country and not left to chance, manipulation or domination by either side. The Kurds or blacks do not have such an agreement but the Montnegros did, thats the difference do you now understand where I am coming from? if you should need further clarification feel free to ask but not in such and insulting fashion, your burying your head in the sand and saying that all minorities have rights does not solve anything or make the problem go away, we are your partners on this island like it or not and we should rule together not one over the other and things left to chance which of course will over time work in favor of the numerical larger GC. ıf you have probelsm digesting this then please feel free to persuade your leaders to continue to persue their current policies of cementing the division which is evidently what we "Cypriots" deserve as we have no vision, will, ability or compromise to resolve anything.

Actually again you just read what you want to read into what I wrote. I did not call YOU stupid. The question itself is stupid. And yes I understand where you are coming from. But the truth of the matter is agreement or no agreement, it shouldnt matter. It is like you are telling me that because Kurds do not have a signed agreement from anywhere, that they are second class citizens. I can see how some people see it that way but coming from someone who is complaining about his rights being violated it is unacceptable to me. Of course it depends on we look at things and if thats what you believe it is your right. No pun indended.