Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

What were the "many reasons" that TC's went into enclaves in 1963 then if it wasnt fear of EOKA and the GC's?

1) Prepearing for partition as directed by Ankara
2) To fight the intercommunal conflict easier. I hope you know that many GReek Cypriot inocent and anarmed people were murdered simply for crossing in those enclaves.

There is no difference between GC and TC refugees they all fled their homes in fear of their lives it just that there were many of you and fewer of us-its just a question of numbers the end results are the same.

During the intercommunal conflict people got killed, homes got burned etc. This was for [b]both[b/] sides.

Since apparently you missed the huge difference between the two I will repeat it:

Turkish Cypriots had gone to enclaves between 1963-68 for many reasons (not just because of EOKA B or GCs) but after 1968 they returned to their homes. Their homes were never taken from them, and nobody ever dinies that they are the legal owners. Not in 63, not 74 not today. On the contrary the 200.000 GCs that were forced to leave from their homes they were never allowed to return, and the occupation regime gave "title deeds" of their properties to others. So please do not confuse these 2 very different things.

In your mind, perhaps you meant Turks from Turkey, however, when we all talk about the "TRNC", it should be clear to all by now, that we are talking about Turkish Cypriots

And why is that? The pseudo state of "TRNC" was set up by Turkey and large part of its population are Turkish settlers and not TCs.

I never said that TCs are criminals or ethnic cleansing supporters. If you want to identify yourself with the illegal "trnc" which bases its creation and existence on ethnic cleansing then feel free to do it, and put yourself in the same category with the Nazis.

[tcklim]

why do you transform every single thread into an identical "discussion" with your copy and paste style of posting?

Congrats to the TC's, hope one day we can play the game together... 'course that means we won't be in the FIFI cup, or the world cup or the euro cup.....

[Kikapu]

[quote="Piratis. If you want to identify yourself with the illegal "trnc" which bases its creation and existence on ethnic cleansing then feel free to do it, and put yourself in the same category with the Nazis.[/quote]

Piratis,

I credited you few days ago for being a good debater on the Cyprus issues, but now you have sunk yourself into a gutter. But as the saying goes, "one good turn deserves another", so I'm going to bring myself to your level, into the gutter, since you enjoy fighting dirty. I have not been to Cyprus since I was force to leave by your great heroes, Makarios, Grivas, Samson, and lets not forget the 'old dog' terrorist, PapaD that you have voted for very recently, and welcome his stance against the TC's. These are your heroes that did not believe in the Constitution or Human Rights, who would smile in your face while planning your execution at the same time. These despicable heroes of yours, stepped on the Constitution that should be the most sacred piece in the fabrik of all democracies. Even today, the Constitution is nothing more than an excuse to claim justice and equality to all Cypriots, when infact it is ignored.

It was all these great heroes of yours that pulled people from their homes in the middle of the night, and never to be seen again, in the first day of the 1963 conflict, so stop lying that both sides are quilty of crimes. You killed for greed, and we killed to survive. The thinking behind your heroes were, hell, "if we could get rid of the British, what so hard about getting rid of bunch of TC's". The crimes were done my your heroes, and if you were there with them, you would have been an executioner yourself, to please your leader at that time. Why do I say that? Because your're now a supporter of criminals from the past , and if you were given the chance to kill few thousand TC's in exchange to get whole of Cyprus into the hands of PappaD, you would not hesitate, so don't you dare accuse me of Nazisim. You're living on the soil which was the property of all Cypriot, but because of your heroes greed to give you all of it, so that you can be proud of them today, is the reason why you have less, so take your complaints to your hero PappaD and cuss him out for failing in their murderous mission, to claim all the land for likes of you. It is the likes of you and your hero PappaD that thousands upon thousands of Cypriots have suffered before and today. I hope you can get yourself out of the gutter, and start doing good things instead.

[Piratis]

Kikapu, unlike you I have NEVER supported any crimes. I was not born until after 1974 and I condemn ALL crimes against innocent people no matter were they are coming from. What I support is human rights and democracy for ALL Cypriots.

Have you seen me at any point justifying any crimes against TCs?

Unfortunately, you choose to present your side as the Virgin Maries and the only victims. You forget that during our history the Turks have killed 10s of thousands of GCs, 6000 of which just 32 years ago, as opposed to some 100s of TCs that were killed by GCs and you give lame excuses of "You killed for greed, and we killed to survive".

Unlike me, you excuse your crimes of the past and you excuse your crimes of today. Therefore you choose to be in the gutter yourself, I didn't place you there.

[Natty]

Why do some TC's beleive that all GC's wanted, or want them killed, the intercommunal fighting was just that, intercommunal, it involves both sides. It wasn't a case of ordinary GC's going from house to house on the order of there goverment, killing every and ethnically cleansing as many TC's as they got there hands on! Again I will say that the amount of people that were killed is similar in both camps, so this does not back up a so called "Genocide". A Genocide is what happened to over 60 million jews during the war...The intercommunal fighting started because the seeds of mistrust were planted by people who did not care about the ordinary Cypriot people, of course there was tension as a result of this lack of trust....the casualties could have been alot more, another bosnia for example, but thankfully it wasn't which proves that both TC's and GC's can live together quite happily as they have done in the past!! And it shows that Cypriot people are naturally peacefull and kind people....
Again i'm sorry if I seem angry, but again i'm just frustrated with what I'm reading!

Peace!!!

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, unlike you I have NEVER supported any crimes. I was not born until after 1974 and I condemn ALL crimes against innocent people no matter were they are coming from. What I support is human rights and democracy for ALL Cypriots.

Have you seen me at any point justifying any crimes against TCs?

Unfortunately, you choose to present your side as the Virgin Maries and the only victims. You forget that during our history the Turks have killed 10s of thousands of GCs, 6000 of which just 32 years ago, as opposed to some 100s of TCs that were killed by GCs and you give lame excuses of "You killed for greed, and we killed to survive".

Unlike me, you excuse your crimes of the past and you excuse your crimes of today. Therefore you choose to be in the gutter yourself, I didn't place you there.

Thank you for standing tall and not deny your loyalty to your past and present criminal heroes. Your support for them today, makes no difference when you were born, as long as you share their ideology. If you could carry out their past objectives of cleansing the TC's, for the benefit of having an all Greek island, I believe you will be leading the charge, but of course you cannot, so you want to do it in another way, and that's to use Human rights and Democracy, as a cover to establish a majority rule, to once again, a way to deny the TC's their rightful place in Cyprus. You tend to confuse other Democracies in other EU member states as a model for Cyprus. They did not step on their Constitution to deny their minority citizens their rights to live with the majority, so don't pretend that you share their examples as to how Cyprus can do the same.

If someone were to give a testimony in a court room, under oath, and they give truthful answers all the way through, but on one occasion, the person lies and perjure themselves, then their whole testimony is thrown out as being untrustworthy. Well your past heroes and PappaD did perjure themselves by not keeping their promise to be truthful to the Constitution, therefore, don't ask me to trust them anymore, and not certainly in the way you want to take control of the island with your majority rule system, because you can't be trusted to be honest.

I can vote in the UK, the USA and perhaps one day, in Cyprus, so, I don't vote in Turkey for you to accuse me of supporting crimes by Turkey, unlike you, you still vote for PappaD, for the crimes he has commited. Or perhaps, because I witnessed the crimes againt me and my family as a child, is my crime for remembering what your heroes did to us, that makes you uncomfortable. Perhaps I lived through it and you read about it after the fact, annoys you, that you can't peddle your distorted version, to fit your agenda. In any case Piratis, you're no different than what your heroes tried to do and still trying to do today, to rule your TC compatriots, and not treat them equal. They tried everything to achieve this since 1960, so it's time that you and your kind faced the reality, and start a more realistic approache to solve the Cyprus problems, because the 'old' ways is not going to work anymore.

[MR-from-NG]

Excellent post Kikapu. Every point you make is spot on.

[Kikapu]

Excellent post Kikapu. Every point you make is spot on.

I'm just sick of hearing likes of Piratis becoming revisionism to distort the truth and being an apologist for their past and present leaders crimes against the Cypriot citizens, both Turkish and Greek. You need to confront these people head on, before they could poison the minds of others with their lies. The GC's are also victims of Piratis's propaganda, to gain support to formulate their "attack" agaist the TC's through their version of Democracy, that what he wants is "we are the majority and you are a protected minority". I don't want to be a protected anything in my own country, so, I'll tell these ilk of criminals, take your minority protectionism and shove it.

Esek oglu esek.

[Kifeas]

Oh dear!

Kikapu, let me ask you a question. If in 1960 -when the British decided to grand Cyprus its independence, instead of the constitution they gave us, they had given us a constitution that was based on one man one vote -like it is the case in all other western democracy and in Turkey as well, and if they did not split the people of Cyprus on the basis of their language and religion –like it is again the case in all other western countries and in Turkey; about which rights of the T/Cs would you be talking now?

You speak about the rights of the T/Cs, and of course what you have in mind with this is the divisive, separatist and racially based rights, as if they some kind of a divine order from god (your kismet,) while there is almost no other western democracy that has such a kind of racist arrangement, and while at the same moment, the country that backs you most (Turkey) refuses to consider even far less separatist rights to the Kurdish people than what you scream about yourselves. You do not scream for your individual political, human or cultural rights as an individual or your groups communal cultural rights -as the Kurdish people do, something which the G/Cs have never denied you should enjoy, but instead for the right of 9% of Cypriots (i.e. 50%+1 of the T/C community) to rule over and decide on behalf of the entire country and its people, and the right of this 9% of Cypriots to bring to a pause, a halt and a stalemate the government of the entire people of the country on practically every matter and issue on the board, should this is what it decides to do, even though you know that such a kind of privilege doesn’t exist in any other country of the world.

Anyone that challenges the above idea, and suggests that perhaps we should have had a more democratic system, similar to the ones every other modern western democracy have, you immediately start scream that this becasue the G/Cs want to "rule over" the T/Cs -as if both communities are not both bloody Cypriots, and convert you into a minority (as if the bloody 18% isn’t a minority proportion of the total,) in their your own homeland (as if bloody Cyprus is not also the homeland of the bloody Greek Cypriots!) You scream about these so-called divine racist and separatist rights, as if every single “ethnic” group of people that exists in every single multicultural country around the globe does enjoy such super privileges, and those who do not have such privileges are the underdogs and the outcasts in their countries, and you rush to condemn anyone who dares to suggest that we all Cypriots irrespective of our “ethnic” backgrounds, should politically be regarded as equal individuals against the state and the government of out country, without separatist and divisive lines among us.

I tell you something. You are not sincere! If you are sincere, you, the T/Cs, should demand every day that Turkey should grand the same rights that you want to maintain having in Cyprus, to the Kurdish citizens of Turkey. However, none of you does this. You acknowledge and promote one standard for Cyprus, and another standard for Turkey (and the rest of the world.) You maintain one set of logic for Turkey, because this is what suits you, and another set of logic for Cyprus, again because this is what suits you again. You are insincere and opportunistic! You do not stand for principles! You are unprincipled! You want yours to be yours and theirs to be yours again! And you call this your “kismet!” Your principle is the principle of the kismet, your kismet!

I ask you again, If in 1960 -when the British decided to grand Cyprus its independence, instead of the constitution they gave us, they had given us a constitution that was based on one-man-one-vote (like in Turkey and elsewere in the West,) and if they had not split the people of Cyprus on the basis of their language and religion but instead they regarded everybody a plain Cypriots; about which rights would you now be talking?

[Piratis]

Thank you for standing tall and not deny your loyalty to your past and present criminal heroes.

I defend no criminal. I have never supported Grivas, Samson, or any EOKA B or other Greek Cypriot extremist that had committed crimes.

However for you apparently GC leader = criminal. If a GC leader wanted democracy in Cyprus, with Cypriots, and not the colonialists, running our country for you is a criminal. Let me tell you something Kikapu, in just about every other country the ones who are condemned are those that fought on the side of the colonialists (e.g. the loyalists in the USA) and not those that fought against them.

So there is nothing criminal in wanting democracy and the struggle to get rid of the colonialists. What is criminal is siding with the colonialists to prevent this from happening in Cyprus, and now supporting the illegalities and crimes of Turkey against our island.

If you could carry out their past objectives of cleansing the TC's

For how long will you continue these shameless lies? I understand that there is no other way to defend the crimes against the 100s of thousands of people that you support today, but at least find some less lame excuse.
How could we be "cleansing the TCs" when in the intercommunal conflict both communities had about the same amount of victims??

In any case Piratis, you're no different than what your heroes tried to do and still trying to do today, to rule your TC compatriots, and not treat them equal

What I want is human rights and democracy for all with TC and GC citizens treated equally without racist discriminations.
What I want is what exists in all other democratic countries, and not what you are trying to force in Cyprus which has NOTHING to do with democracy and is against the human rights of 100s of thousands of people.

You support apartheid and discrimination based on race and be sure that such outrageous things will not be accepted. The 18% of TCs are by definition a minority. Aren't the blacks in the USA a minority in their own country? Aren't the Kurds in Turkey a minority in their own country? Aren't the Turks in Bulgaria a minority in their own country? Aren't the (30%) Russians in Latvia a minority in their own country.
Do you know any ethnic group which is much less in numbers than another ethnic group that is not a minority?

Here is the definition of a minority:

A person or group of people who have a different culture, religion or language to the main one in the place or country they live.

another one:

a sub-group that does not form either a majority or a plurality of the total population

So by definition TCs are a minority.

So what outrageous we hear from Kikapu and some others:

1) Fighting against the colonialists was a crime. Fighting on the side of the colonialists helping them to keep Cyprus as a colony was the right thing.

2) Any Greek Cypriot leader that did not accept Turks as the superior race, and instead wanted democracy without racist discriminations and apartheid is a criminal.

3) TCs are not a minority when they are by definition.

4) The 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots that were killed by the Turks, the 200.000 refugees, the illegal occupation of our country by Turkey, the declaration of the pseudo state of "trnc" etc, are all excused because at some selectively chosen part of history GCs had committed crimes as well, even if the Turks that had committed way bigger crimes before, equal amount of crimes during that time, and yet more crimes after and even until today.

We have the saying "Ipen o gadaros tou petinou kefala". Meaning that you demand the punishment of GCs because of the crimes they committed, forgetting that you had committed 100 times more crimes against us. So why should you be rewarded on our expense?