Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

There is no "my" version of human rights and democracy. I said many times that you can pick the principles of ANY other EU country to be applied in Cyprus.
It is you that you demand for Cyprus something racist and undemocratic, tailored on your demands, with total disregard to our rights, that exists NOWHERE else.

Piratis,

Now, you know that not all democracies are the same throughout the world. Some are better than others, and some are better than nothing at all, and there are those, that do not have any. So why can't Cyprus have it's own unique democracy and a constitution like everyone else, that is unique to their country, as long as it meets the needs and concerns of all its citizens. The issues that are really not acceptable to one side or the other, should be either compromised to have the very best result possible, or agree to visit these issues of concerns again every 5, 10 or 15 years to try again. This will buy time to allow the citizens to come together. Once a true unity is formed by the citizens, I can't see any reason why they will not all want the same thing, which I'm sure, it will be unique to the rest of the world. But you can only buy time while the country tries to heal from it's wounds by working together, and not watching it from the sidelines, throwing insults and hate to each other. Lets get the ball rolling first, because Cyprus will be there long after we're all gone.

[Alexis]

What i am suggesting to you is that the constitution was not given to you and was not produced out of thin air. The constitution was negotiated between Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots and 3 Gaurantor states Britain, Greece and Turkey. No one forced Greek Cypriots to take it the politians decided to accept it.

I think I understand what you're saying stuballstu, it is not as simple as just having a constitution forced upon us, but a few points to bear in mind:

1) Why wasn't this constitution put to referendum as it would be in this day and age?

2) Who elected the politicians who negotiated on behalf of the communities?

3) Who decided that Greece and Turkey should have a say, and who elected the individuals to negotiate on their behalf?

4) Given that the population of Cyprus was approx 0.1% British at the time why did the constitution afford any rights to Britain? Who elected those to negotiate on behalf of Britain?

People can and do ask these questions and more, just something to think about before coming to conclusions about how and why the constitution was accepted in the form that it was.

[Piratis]

Now, you know that not all democracies are the same throughout the world.

However all EU democracies are based on some common principles.

Some are better than others, and some are better than nothing at all, and there are those, that do not have any.

Agreed. However I wouldn't want to live in an undemocratic country. And since we are talking about the solution of the Cyprus problem I don't see how something that would create something undemocratic and against human rights could be a solution since for me at least such development would be even worst than what we have now.

The issues that are really not acceptable to one side or the other, should be either compromised to have the very best result possible, or agree to visit these issues of concerns again every 5, 10 or 15 years to try again.

I agree with you on this up to a point. These issues should be within the limits of democracy and human rights. If we told you that for GCs it is not acceptable that TCs live over the age of 60 (a violation of their human rights) would you accept it, or would you compromise for 65?
Some demands of the Turkish side are simply outrageous and can obviously not accepted by the great majority of GCs. Beyond that I would be more than willing to discuss on how we can accommodate both sides within those limits.

This will buy time to allow the citizens to come together. Once a true unity is formed by the citizens, I can't see any reason why they will not all want the same thing, which I'm sure, it will be unique to the rest of the world. But you can only buy time while the country tries to heal from it's wounds by working together, and not watching it from the sidelines, throwing insults and hate to each other. Lets get the ball rolling first, because Cyprus will be there long after we're all gone.

I agree that it will take time to achieve true unity. This is why I always talk about long transitional periods. I do not expect everything to change within a day.
Where i disagree is that something unfair and racist can develop into something good in the future without any force. How many people do you know that would voluntarily give up super privileges for the good of people as a whole?
Unfortunately such people are the rare exception. In reality if some group of people is given something more, then they will never voluntarily give it up.

Once GCs sign away their rights and TCs would now legally have a ton more super privileges then there is no way that TCs will ever want to give them up. Also there is no way that GCs will accept such discriminations for long. So where will that lead us? To something better, or to another conflict with many victims? I believe it would be the second.

[stuballstu]

I think I understand what you're saying stuballstu, it is not as simple as just having a constitution forced upon us, but a few points to bear in mind:

1) Why wasn't this constitution put to referendum as it would be in this day and age?

2) Who elected the politicians who negotiated on behalf of the communities?

3) Who decided that Greece and Turkey should have a say, and who elected the individuals to negotiate on their behalf?

4) Given that the population of Cyprus was approx 0.1% British at the time why did the constitution afford any rights to Britain? Who elected those to negotiate on behalf of Britain?

People can and do ask these questions and more, just something to think about before coming to conclusions about how and why the constitution was accepted in the form that it was.

Alexis

I dont think having a referendum was comon place in the 60's

Dont forget the demographics of the world and Europe was very much different then. Britain when giving independence to other parts of the Commonwealth always had their finger in the pie long after independence was granted. It worked in many other states so why not Cyprus it was perhaps the model that they used during transition periods. Also what i majorly important is that the strategic importance of Cyprus was even more so then given the cold war etc.

I think Turkey and Greece were involved mainly because the largest parts of the population came from Greece and Turkey. Maybe someone else will correct me on that.

[Kikapu]

Now, you know that not all democracies are the same throughout the world.

However all EU democracies are based on some common principles.

Some are better than others, and some are better than nothing at all, and there are those, that do not have any.

Agreed. However I wouldn't want to live in an undemocratic country. And since we are talking about the solution of the Cyprus problem I don't see how something that would create something undemocratic and against human rights could be a solution since for me at least such development would be even worst than what we have now.

The issues that are really not acceptable to one side or the other, should be either compromised to have the very best result possible, or agree to visit these issues of concerns again every 5, 10 or 15 years to try again.

I agree with you on this up to a point. These issues should be within the limits of democracy and human rights. If we told you that for GCs it is not acceptable that TCs live over the age of 60 (a violation of their human rights) would you accept it, or would you compromise for 65?
Some demands of the Turkish side are simply outrageous and can obviously not accepted by the great majority of GCs. Beyond that I would be more than willing to discuss on how we can accommodate both sides within those limits.

This will buy time to allow the citizens to come together. Once a true unity is formed by the citizens, I can't see any reason why they will not all want the same thing, which I'm sure, it will be unique to the rest of the world. But you can only buy time while the country tries to heal from it's wounds by working together, and not watching it from the sidelines, throwing insults and hate to each other. Lets get the ball rolling first, because Cyprus will be there long after we're all gone.

I agree that it will take time to achieve true unity. This is why I always talk about long transitional periods. I do not expect everything to change within a day.
Where i disagree is that something unfair and racist can develop into something good in the future without any force. How many people do you know that would voluntarily give up super privileges for the good of people as a whole?
Unfortunately such people are the rare exception. In reality if some group of people is given something more, then they will never voluntarily give it up.

Once GCs sign away their rights and TCs would now legally have a ton more super privileges then there is no way that TCs will ever want to give them up. Also there is no way that GCs will accept such discriminations for long. So where will that lead us? To something better, or to another conflict with many victims? I believe it would be the second.

Piratis,

You know something, you worry too much about everything, that may or may not happen. We should cross those bridges, when we get to them. "Hang loose" for cry'n out loud !!!

PS. I want to live atleast until 95 years old !!

[Alexis]

Alexis

I dont think having a referendum was comon place in the 60's

Maybe not as commonplace as these days (as I implied in my email), but certainly was used in other circumstances way before the 1960s (e.g. the plebescite in the Saar land in the 1920s).

Dont forget the demographics of the world and Europe was very much different then. Britain when giving independence to other parts of the Commonwealth always had their finger in the pie long after independence was granted. It worked in many other states so why not Cyprus it was perhaps the model that they used during transition periods. Also what i majorly important is that the strategic importance of Cyprus was even more so then given the cold war etc.

I think this is the point I was trying to make. You cannot go making claims that the Cypriot population agreed to the 1960 agreements without considering the points I made. You say that Britain's mechanism for granting independence 'worked' in many other states and this is true, but if you count the number of failures and the loss of life due to those failures one can argue that the mechanism was a failure, look at Egypt, India/Pakistan, Malaya, Uganda etc... the list goes on. I agree with you about the strategic importance, obviously this had a large role to play, but also look at the amount Cyprus had to sacrifice to Britain compared to other Commonwealth states.

I think Turkey and Greece were involved mainly because the largest parts of the population came from Greece and Turkey. Maybe someone else will correct me on that.

Not true, the majority of people came from Cyprus, Greece and Turkey both had designs on the island and the people there did consider themselves to be either Greek or Turkish at the time, hence the involvement of these countries. The 1960s agreements benefitted the mother states very little beyond giving them rights to intervene in the country and to station a token number of troops there. Anyway,the point is that these countries should not have been involved in negotiations to shape the constitution of the country since their representatives were not elected by Cypriots. Britain's involvement should have been minimal and it is safe to say that had independence been granted later rather than earlier (obviously something the GC population is responsible for to our detriment with hindsight) Britain would probably not have gotten away with what she did.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

You voted "yes" to a partition plan, not to a unification plan. Anything that had to do with unification like the UN resolutions that called for the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Cyprus, the respect of the sovereignty of RoC, the illegality of "trnc" etc, were totally ignored from you.

It was the first and only plan that was put before and it addressed many issues only problem was it was not in your favor. But you said no to the Turkish Army leaving, a united Cyprus being formed and the abolishin of the TRNC. Well done.

That says to me the exact same thing that it was said for the last 32 years. That you expect us to negotiate and give away our human and democratic rights. Sorry, but such things are not negotiable. When you are ready to negotiate on the basis of democracy, human rights and the EU aquis let us know. If you are going to tell us the same old outrageous demands then whats the point?

Thats what you think we are saying because thats what you want to believe. We know your version of human rights and democracy we lived it in the 1960s thast why we need safe guards until a time that we can trust each other.

If we had made an attempt to wipe you out between 63-74 then you had made an attempt to wipe us out as well, since both GCs and TCs had about the same number of casualties during that time.
Also if you call those 100s of people during a decade as an attempt to "wipe you out" then what do you call the butchering of 1000s and 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots within days by the Turks??
If for you ethnic cleansing is the way to "live without fear for the lives" why you didn't move out of Cyprus yourselves earlier to "solve" this problem faster?

You were unsucessfu but your intentions were not honourable.l
We are going nowhere you are free to leave whenever you wish seeing you are now afraid of the big bad Turkish army.

If it is not about numbers then would you accept to take half (9%) of land instead of double that you grabbed? Or maybe in that case numbers count?

You are mixing apples and pears again, suffering is suffering whatever the number, you cannot quantify it dont work that way.

The TCs entered in a conflict with GCs and they murdered 100s of GCs, the same amount as the TCs killed. So why do you present TCs as the only victims of that time??? I do not dismiss the wrong doings of GCs. I am just noting that you use the wrong doings by GCs in that 1 decade as an excuse to cause more suffering to GCs in addition to the 300 years of Ottoman oppression and the 32 years of illegal occupation. Thats 10 years VS 332 years and you still want more against us? What kind of people are you really? Do you chant the "One Turk equals the whole world" in your parades?

We were forced into conflict by greedy Eoka who pursued the Enosis dream what were we supposed to do?

. You said it right. It was an excuse. An excuse that expired 32 years ago and if it was truly "no Enosis no need for Taksim" and not just an excuse, then the occupation would have ended immediately since those that tried to enforce enosis in 1974 were arrested and jailed and nobody else demanded enosis ever since.

You gave them that excuse not me.

There is no "my" version of human rights and democracy. I said many times that you can pick the principles of ANY other EU country to be applied in Cyprus.
It is you that you demand for Cyprus something racist and undemocratic, tailored on your demands, with total disregard to our rights, that exists NOWHERE else.

Its the people that will administer the human rights and democracy that is the problem not the principles themselves, we have experieinced at first hand how you administer them for TCs. (1963)

[stuballstu]

Quote:
Alexis

I dont think having a referendum was comon place in the 60's



Maybe not as commonplace as these days (as I implied in my email), but certainly was used in other circumstances way before the 1960s (e.g. the plebescite in the Saar land in the 1920s).

I appreciate with what your saying Alexis and perhaps we are both in agreement about this. However going a stage further, if there was a referendum at that time, is it not a distinct possibility that Cypriots would have overwhelmingly voted to take the constitution at that time for fear that the opportunity to have independence might never have came up again? For TC's at this time they had lots of guarantees by the constitution and for the EOKA supporters it gave them something that there fighting had been for. So perhaps in hindsight there was no need for a referendum as the answer would have been yes anyway. Hindsight is a wonderful thing when we look back at it from 2006.

I think this is the point I was trying to make. You cannot go making claims that the Cypriot population agreed to the 1960 agreements without considering the points I made. You say that Britain's mechanism for granting independence 'worked' in many other states and this is true, but if you count the number of failures and the loss of life due to those failures one can argue that the mechanism was a failure, look at Egypt, India/Pakistan, Malaya, Uganda etc... the list goes on. I agree with you about the strategic importance, obviously this had a large role to play, but also look at the amount Cyprus had to sacrifice to Britain compared to other Commonwealth states.

What i meant to say was that the mechanism for granting independence worked mainly for Britain. In the India/ Pakistan regions they still fight now with each other mainly over the Kashmiri region. I am not saying that if it wasnt for this it would be peaceful there but it would not be anywhere as bad as it was. Unfortunately world peace is only something that Miss World says she believes in. Britains mechanism did work for other parts of the world as well. Take Malta, many Carribean Islands and even a land as big as Australia and New Zealand. So whilst it was not perfect or full proof it was proven to work. Cyprus was different mainly due to its logistical location that Britain felt the needed to keep a presence here

[Piratis]

It was the first and only plan that was put before and it addressed many issues only problem was it was not in your favor. But you said no to the Turkish Army leaving, a united Cyprus being formed and the abolishin of the TRNC. Well done.

We said no to a partition plan and we had the right to say no. For 32 years you say "no" to UN resolutions and ECHR rulings and you insist on illegalities, something that it is not your right.

Thats what you think we are saying because thats what you want to believe. We know your version of human rights and democracy we lived it in the 1960s thast why we need safe guards until a time that we can trust each other.

The version of democracy we had in the 60s was not designed by me or Greek Cypriots in general. There is no "my" version, but as I told you repeatedly you can choose ANY "version" from any other EU country. Instead of that you insist on undemocratic and racist things that exist nowhere else in the world.

We were forced into conflict by greedy Eoka who pursued the Enosis dream what were we supposed to do?

Accept the democratic wish of the majority of the population and not to start a conflict. Countries joined the EU with much smaller majorities. Did the ones that disagree in those countries took up weapons and started killing people because they didn't like the choice of the majority?

Its the people that will administer the human rights and democracy that is the problem not the principles themselves, we have experieinced at first hand how you administer them for TCs. (1963)

Ok, I knew you are racist, no need to remind me that. The people are all the same and should be equal. However apparently for a racist like you the Turks are "good" and the Greeks or "bad".

The problems created in the past were exactly due to the racist discrimination and separation of Cypriots that was forced in Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis we appear to be going around in circles you read but you do not understand...try hard very hard to absorb what I am saying as it will help you understnand that what we want is not that extreme for a community which has gone through our history, the trust is non exisdent and needs to be addressed not tossed to one side like its not importnant this only had the opposite of the desired effect and stimulates even further mistrust.

We said no to a partition plan and we had the right to say no. For 32 years you say "no" to UN resolutions and ECHR rulings and you insist on illegalities, something that it is not your right.

Did we the people have a say? todate we were asked to vote on 1 plan which as you know was named the Annan plan, we said yes but I do not feel that this will be the case in the future as the negativity from both sides fuels further and lasting division. ıf thats your goal continue as you and your leaders appear to be doing an excellent job.

The version of democracy we had in the 60s was not designed by me or Greek Cypriots in general. There is no "my" version, but as I told you repeatedly you can choose ANY "version" from any other EU country. Instead of that you insist on undemocratic and racist things that exist nowhere else in the world.

You can choose any version of human rights and democracy and hand it to the GCs to administer our past experience and current events of the GC mentality towards us gives us no confidence in putting our future in your hands.

Accept the democratic wish of the majority of the population and not to start a conflict. Countries joined the EU with much smaller majorities. Did the ones that disagree in those countries took up weapons and started killing people because they didn't like the choice of the majority?

You are comparing apples with pears again, joining the EU and uniting with Greece are 2 totally different issues.
If you are forced to do anything against your will you fight back with all your strength this is human nature Piratis.

Ok, I knew you are racist, no need to remind me that. The people are all the same and should be equal. However apparently for a racist like you the Turks are "good" and the Greeks or "bad".

The problems created in the past were exactly due to the racist discrimination and separation of Cypriots that was forced in Cyprus.

You can call people names as much as you wish this is the action of someone who cannot address the real issues. Due to our dark past and current lack of understanding of the othersides concerns we continue to mistrust each other and are therefore not prepared to take a jump into the dark and expose ourselves to GC numerical domination which will mean GC administered democracy and human rights.