Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

duplication

[Viewpoint]

What you said many times is that "we deserve partition". So if partition has always been TCs dream and GCs nightmare, then why if both sides are to blame the TCs should have their dream and GCs their nightmare?

You read but you do not understand I am saying we TCs are also to blame for the current situation we find ourselves in. The fact that the only reunificiation plan that was put before us the TC community was voted on positvely shows at least that we do want unification, dont just push this to one side with your usual rhetoric but the plan was one sided, we voted on what was put before us good or bad and that imo is a real indication of what TCs really want, if you chose to ignore that fact then its your loss as you should be working hard to capatilize on such momentum, all you have done so far is demonize what we said YES to and not come with any alternative plan or at minimum talks between our leaders.

If you truly accepted that both sides are to blame, then you would accept that nobody should gain on the loss of another from what we had in 1960. Still you insist that TCs should get more than that while GCs less. If both are to blame then why TCs should be rewarded and GCs punished?

We are the ones saying we are open to negotiations , what does that say to you??? You are the ones that were not happy with the 1960 agreement but yet you do not feel that we shoudl try to negotaite anything better as you fear will get more than our fair share, well Piratis thats why negotiations are held to find middle ground and compromise so one community does not force its will on the other.

Here is the answer I didn't even need to type:
"The political gain far outwieghs the financial cost, please feel free to cancel these "benefits" if they make you feel uncomfortable, I dare you.

I dont have a problem with the developments in the north thast why I do not constantly play on them or remind you, like you do at every opportunity.

We never tried to do that, and the fact that only some 100s of TCs , about the same number as GCs, over a period of a decade proves that.
But since we are talking about "goes" why you don't tell us how many goes you had to exterminate GCs? You killed 10s of thousands when you first set your food on the island and then you were oppressing us for centuries. Why was a second and a third go given to you?

The only difference and this may sound harsh is that your attempts to wipe us out luckily enough failed I hate to think where we would be today if you were sucessful whereas our actions bear the results of today where both communities live without fear for the lives.

There is absoulutely no one I know that dosnt feel for all the refugees, and their rights to a fair solution, they paid the highest price, but it happened on both sides, all you do is put weight on your own peoples plight, by using numbers, numercally you will always be larger this does not mean the hardship was greater, its the same everyone suffered. The issue is how do resolve these peoples continuing suffering taking into account the realities of today. It is not just a matter of numbers.

GCs were forced to leave at gunpoint, while TCs went to the occupied areas to realize their dream of partition and receive land twice as much. Would you also support division if the occupied area for the 18% of TCs was 9% (half) instead of double?

What about TCs who were forced to desert their homes during 1963-1974, and lived in squaller for all those years where were your high and mighty prniciples of human rights and democracy for all, ho sorry I forgot what was your rhetoric on this issue "we inflicted all that suffering on ourselves" thats how you want to see it, it helps you dismiss what really went on (it would do you a lot of good if you spoke to TCs who lived through those years, or will you feel they are all lieing).

Turkey was eying Cyprus as a strategic place of great importance for her since the time they lost it to the British. Even recent speeches of your generals show this. So don't try to excuse taksim and the planned ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots.

Taksim was born out of Enosis, no Enosis no need for Taksim, no excuses to intervene.

We get there when people accept that the solution of the Cyprus problem will be based on universally accepted principles of democracy and human rights. This is the first required step. If the Turkish attitude continues to be "we won the war and we expect rewards" then we will get nowhere.

Forget what you continue to percieve as the Turkish attitude, we are passed that. We have discussed a few issues in the past about how you would apply your version of human rights and democracy and imho you failed terribly (remember teh settlers issues we tried to solve). Thats why Tcs are very very apprehensive about what you deem to be internatoinally accepted human rights and democracy and your application of these rights.

[Pasha]

Everyone take cover, we got an E-WARRIOR here !

[bigfatlondonboy]

now now people calm down......

[wogboy]

It was told to me that 1/3 of Greek Cypriots voted for unification. This is a considerable number. To appeal to the rest you need a better plan. Two of the major points of dispute were:

1. The turkish settlers in Northern Cyprus.
2. The rights of return refugees.

On these two points the last plan was unworkable. Turkish people wont leave, and Greek Cypriots wont budge either. The reasons are not as obvious to some people;

If the Turkish settlers leave, then Greek Cypriots will undoubtably control most of Cyprus. Economic control will be placed in the hands of one group. Turkey will not accept this (not becasue it cares about these settlers), but becasue it already controls the resources of 1/3 of the island. Its that simple.

That's why these issues have led to all past failures.

Further, any plan that merely offers the Greek Cypriots their old run down homes is unacceptable. You also need to compensate them for having to pack their bags (and lives) and move to the north (if thats what they really want to do). The same principles applie to the Turkish Cypriots.

The only way this problem will be solved is to firstly acknowledge that some people are almost certainly more disadvantaged than others. A scheme has to be put in place to compensate everybody involved. It has to provide more than one option, understanding that disputes between parties will arise. The only way to compensate people and resolve this crisis is with money. People need financial incentives. The only problem is, I doubt wether Greece and Turkey will foot the bill.

Also, get those British bases out of Cyprus.

[Piratis]

You continually claim that the constitution was "forced upon" Cyprus. Are you trying to say that the constitution was just pulled out of mid air by the Brits?

How about this: I come to your country and I give you the former constitution of South Africa. It didn't come out of thin air, and Europeans are those who made it. And I make you a second category citizen like the blacks used to be.

Now if you want to change anything, the minority of Greek Cypriots in your country (the elite) would have the power to veto it.

Therefore you will be forever stuck with that and any attempt to change it without the agreement of the GC minority in your country will be illegal and a crime.

Sounds good to you?

It was illegal for Blacks in south Africa to demand their rights also. Did you know that? I guess you will say that Mandela was a criminal for demanding an end to racist discriminations and apartheid and he was correctly jailed?

[Piratis]

The fact that the only reunificiation plan that was put before us the TC community was voted on positvely shows at least that we do want unification

You voted "yes" to a partition plan, not to a unification plan. Anything that had to do with unification like the UN resolutions that called for the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Cyprus, the respect of the sovereignty of RoC, the illegality of "trnc" etc, were totally ignored from you.

We are the ones saying we are open to negotiations , what does that say to you?

That says to me the exact same thing that it was said for the last 32 years. That you expect us to negotiate and give away our human and democratic rights. Sorry, but such things are not negotiable. When you are ready to negotiate on the basis of democracy, human rights and the EU aquis let us know. If you are going to tell us the same old outrageous demands then whats the point?

The only difference and this may sound harsh is that your attempts to wipe us out luckily enough failed I hate to think where we would be today if you were successful whereas our actions bear the results of today where both communities live without fear for the lives.

If we had made an attempt to wipe you out between 63-74 then you had made an attempt to wipe us out as well, since both GCs and TCs had about the same number of casualties during that time.
Also if you call those 100s of people during a decade as an attempt to "wipe you out" then what do you call the butchering of 1000s and 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots within days by the Turks??

If for you ethnic cleansing is the way to "live without fear for the lives" why you didn't move out of Cyprus yourselves earlier to "solve" this problem faster?

There is absoulutely no one I know that dosnt feel for all the refugees, and their rights to a fair solution, they paid the highest price, but it happened on both sides, all you do is put weight on your own peoples plight, by using numbers, numercally you will always be larger this does not mean the hardship was greater, its the same everyone suffered. The issue is how do resolve these peoples continuing suffering taking into account the realities of today. It is not just a matter of numbers.

If it is not about numbers then would you accept to take half (9%) of land instead of double that you grabbed? Or maybe in that case numbers count?

What about TCs who were forced to desert their homes during 1963-1974, and lived in squaller for all those years where were your high and mighty principles of human rights and democracy for all, ho sorry I forgot what was your rhetoric on this issue "we inflicted all that suffering on ourselves" thats how you want to see it, it helps you dismiss what really went on (it would do you a lot of good if you spoke to TCs who lived through those years, or will you feel they are all lieing).

The TCs entered in a conflict with GCs and they murdered 100s of GCs, the same amount as the TCs killed. So why do you present TCs as the only victims of that time??? I do not dismiss the wrong doings of GCs. I am just noting that you use the wrong doings by GCs in that 1 decade as an excuse to cause more suffering to GCs in addition to the 300 years of Ottoman oppression and the 32 years of illegal occupation. Thats 10 years VS 332 years and you still want more against us? What kind of people are you really? Do you chant the "One Turk equals the whole world" in your parades?

Taksim was born out of Enosis, no Enosis no need for Taksim, no excuses to intervene.

You said it right. It was an excuse. An excuse that expired 32 years ago and if it was truly "no Enosis no need for Taksim" and not just an excuse, then the occupation would have ended immediately since those that tried to enforce enosis in 1974 were arrested and jailed and nobody else demanded enosis ever since.

Forget what you continue to percieve as the Turkish attitude, we are passed that. We have discussed a few issues in the past about how you would apply your version of human rights and democracy and imho you failed terribly (remember teh settlers issues we tried to solve). Thats why Tcs are very very apprehensive about what you deem to be internatoinally accepted human rights and democracy and your application of these rights.

There is no "my" version of human rights and democracy. I said many times that you can pick the principles of ANY other EU country to be applied in Cyprus.
It is you that you demand for Cyprus something racist and undemocratic, tailored on your demands, with total disregard to our rights, that exists NOWHERE else.

[stuballstu]

Quote:
You continually claim that the constitution was "forced upon" Cyprus. Are you trying to say that the constitution was just pulled out of mid air by the Brits?


How about this: I come to your country and I give you the former constitution of South Africa. It didn't come out of thin air, and Europeans are those who made it. And I make you a second category citizen like the blacks used to be.

Now if you want to change anything, the minority of Greek Cypriots in your country (the elite) would have the power to veto it.

Therefore you will be forever stuck with that and any attempt to change it without the agreement of the GC minority in your country will be illegal and a crime.

Sounds good to you?

It was illegal for Blacks in south Africa to demand their rights also. Did you know that? I guess you will say that Mandela was a criminal for demanding an end to racist discriminations and apartheid and he was correctly jailed?

Piratis

your are obviously missing my point so i will try and make it as simple as i can for you.

You continually claim that the constitution was "forced upon" Greek Cypriots.

What i am suggesting to you is that the constitution was not given to you and was not produced out of thin air. The constitution was negotiated between Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots and 3 Gaurantor states Britain, Greece and Turkey. No one forced Greek Cypriots to take it the politians decided to accept it.

How about this: I come to your country and I give you the former constitution of South Africa

Your very welcome too, however like the Cypriots in 1960 i reserve the right not to accept it. The relevence of South Africa to Cyprus is..............?

Why do you continually blame everyone else Piratis? Its the fault of the Brits, The Turks, The Americans and anyone else who may have ate a Cyprus potato. You never blame Greece or indeed Greek Cypriots and very rarely acknowledge at least that they played a part in creating the Cyprus we know today.

[MR-from-NG]

Piratis, Monotonous, DE-JA-VUUUUUUUUUU....zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Piratis]

What i am suggesting to you is that the constitution was not given to you and was not produced out of thin air. The constitution was negotiated between Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots and 3 Gaurantor states Britain, Greece and Turkey. No one forced Greek Cypriots to take it the politians decided to accept it.

You are wrong. Greek Cypriots were in fact forced to accept it with no better alternative given.

Why do you continually blame everyone else Piratis? Its the fault of the Brits, The Turks, The Americans and anyone else who may have ate a Cyprus potato. You never blame Greece or indeed Greek Cypriots and very rarely acknowledge at least that they played a part in creating the Cyprus we know today.

Can we please have our country for ourselves? Or you will continue to force on us what you want, and then blame us on top of it?

Why I do not blame Australians or China? Because they are sitting in their own countries and they don't force us their own will to serve their own interests. Why can't the British, the Americans etc do the same?

We have asked them since the early 1900s to get the hell out of our island. Why they insist of being 1000s of miles away from their own countries and their own business and fucking up our own?