Cyprus-Forum.com

[MR-from-NG]

GCs don't trust the TCs either. Does this mean that GCs now have the right to ethnically cleanse TCs from Cyprus?

You tried this in 63 and 74 and failed miserably on both occasions, how many attempts must you have before you get it right?

[Kikapu]

Piratis,
I have not made the claim that Makarios changed the Constitution. You're correct, he proposed it and it was rejected, and it was never changed. I just do not know at what stage Turkey planned to invade Cyprus and keep part of it until now. The question I have is, you claimed it was the intention to divide the island from the 1960's, so I don't know why Turkey waited until 1974 and not invade much sooner when there were plenty of reasons to do so. If the Greek Cypriot took the corrective actions between 1963 and 1974 towards the Turkish Cypriots, perhaps the invasion would have been avoided.

I'm not happy what has happend to the 200,000 GC's during the invasion, and I would like to see a solution so that everyone can go home. But we need to admit to errors made, and you do point out the errors from both sides. I don't even know why we go round and round on this issue as to who's at fault. The milk has been spilled, so we need to mop it up and move on. We all have good intentions over Cyprus and how to bring it together again. There's no point going back to 1571, or 1960, or 1963, or 1974. We are in 2006, and the future starts again and again every second from now. Miltiades looks to the future at his every posting and we should all follow him. Piratis, you're a strong debater on the Cyprus issue, but don't forget, some of us on this forum have lived through the early days of this conflict in Cyprus and the events are still fresh in our memories. You need to know where our point of views are coming from. Try to put things into prospective as I'm sure , we would want to do the same with your views.

[Piratis]

You tried this in 63 and 74 and failed miserably on both occasions, how many attempts must you have before you get it right?

??? Between 63 and 74 only some 100s of TCs got killed as opposed to 1000s of GCs. So what are you talking about my ignorant friend?

Ethnic cleansing was performed by Turkey when they ethnically cleansed 200.000 people from their own homes. Thats a number way bigger than all the TCs in Cyprus.

[Piratis]

The question I have is, you claimed it was the intention to divide the island from the 1960's

From much before that. Fazil Kutchuk even published a map of a divided Cyprus in 1957.

so I don't know why Turkey waited until 1974

They waited for the right excuse and the green light from the US.

If the Greek Cypriot took the corrective actions between 1963 and 1974 towards the Turkish Cypriots, perhaps the invasion would have been avoided.

In 1968 the intercommunal conflict was mostly over and TCs and GCs were negotiating. The 1974 events were irrelevant to the intercommunal conflict. The excuse was the coup supported by the junta of Athens (CIA) and not the intercommunal conflict.
Makarios tried to prevent the coup but he didn't have the power to do so unfortunately.

I'm not happy what has happend to the 200,000 GC's during the invasion, and I would like to see a solution so that everyone can go home.

We agree on this important issue then.

I don't even know why we go round and round on this issue as to who's at fault. The milk has been spilled, so we need to mop it up and move on. We all have good intentions over Cyprus and how to bring it together again. There's no point going back to 1571, or 1960, or 1963, or 1974. We are in 2006, and the future starts again and again every second from now.

I agree. Personally I demand the punishment of nobody because of past actions. What has happened was bad, and we know what the roots were: nationalism, racism, foreign manipulation and conflicting interests (thats what they made us believe).
The solution is to make something new without the faults of the past.

some of us on this forum have lived through the early days of this conflict in Cyprus and the events are still fresh in our memories. You need to know where our point of views are coming from.

I know where your point of views are coming from. I can understand the mistrust coming from both sides. This is why I say that the solution will not come overnight. It will take many years. However we have to agree on the final aim. And this can not be other than human rights for ALL Cypriots, democracy, no discriminations and respect to everybody regardless of their religion, language, color etc.

I more than willing to discuss way that will lead us were we should be aiming at. What I can not do is be part of yet another mistake, another crime, that will lead to more problems and violence in the future (e.g. Annan plan)

[Viewpoint]

miltiades

Of course we will not get any where , we need all the support we can master from own people , our Turkish Cypriot compatriots

If there were only more like and less like Alexander and people like him.

Piratis

miltiades, me before all have said that we should leave the past behind and move ahead with something new that will finally give to ALL Cypriots their human rights and democracy without racist discriminations.

Unfortunately the above doesn't fit the aims of some people like Viewpoint. For those people what matters is to blame the GCs, to excuse the illegal occupation, and to achieve legalization of partition.

You will notice that whenever I tried to say that "past is past" those people came up and said something along the lines of "GCs are the guilty ones, so now they should be forever punished with human rights violations against them".

I have said time and time again that both sides messed up big time and its becasue of those mistakes we find ourselves in the situation we are in today. Isnt that enough acceptence that we TCs are to blame as well?

And what have the TCs done in order to win the GCs and provide the safeguards that they can be trusted again?

Opened the borders,
Changed our leader,
Voted YES to reunificiation plan as ackonwledged by the UN.
Opened a GC school,
Allowed marraiges in a church,
Establishing a property commission spring to mind...
is this enough no its not but at least we are trying.

GCs don't trust the TCs either. Does this mean that GCs now have the right to ethnically cleanse TCs from Cyprus?

We are going around in circles but I have to say you tried this in 1963, continually encouraged TCs to go abroad and were planning it in 1974, how goes do you want?

In fact RoC has done many things for TCs (e.g. free health care when non of them pays taxes). But what Viewpoint is talking about are things that would bring his pseudo state of "trnc" closer to recognition.

The political gain far outwieghs the financial cost, please feel free to cancel these "benefits" if they make you feel uncomfortable, I dare you.

People like me want an end to the Cyprus problem one way or another either reunificaiton, but as we are unable to agree anything we are only left with the reality of division.

Ethnic cleansing was performed by Turkey when they ethnically cleansed 200.000 people from their own homes. Thats a number way bigger than all the TCs in Cyprus.

There is absoulutely no one I know that dosnt feel for all the refugees, and their rights to a fair solution, they paid the highest price, but it happened on both sides, all you do is put weight on your own peoples plight, by using numbers, numercally you will always be larger this does not mean the hardship was greater, its the same everyone suffered. The issue is how do resolve these peoples continuing suffering taking into account the realities of today.

From much before that. Fazil Kutchuk even published a map of a divided Cyprus in 1957.

Do you agree Taksim was in direct repsonse to Enosis? without Enosis there would be no Taksim.

know where your point of views are coming from. I can understand the mistrust coming from both sides. This is why I say that the solution will not come overnight. It will take many years. However we have to agree on the final aim. And this can not be other than human rights for ALL Cypriots, democracy, no discriminations and respect to everybody regardless of their religion, language, color etc.

I more than willing to discuss way that will lead us were we should be aiming at. What I can not do is be part of yet another mistake, another crime, that will lead to more problems and violence in the future (e.g. Annan plan)

Easy to chant very difficult to achieve as long as there is no trust and understanding . How do we get there?

[Justwantpeace]

miltiades wrote:
You state the property share and mention a figure of Turkish Cypriot owned property amounting to 1/3 , and yet the T/Cs represented the 18% of the population . Now are you seriously telling us that each T/c owned approximately twice the property of each G/C . Such false figures from either side are not constructive in establishing a common ground that we can all focus on in order to work towards a just and permanent solution

Hi Miltiades, I didn't state exact figures but the map I saw looked exactly like the map Piratis shows on his link and was very old, each dot had figures to show how many people were in each village, and this roughly looked like there was 2 (maybe 3) Greeks to every 1 Turk on the island. Maybe there was less than 18%, but I have never seen the source for this information, just figures and charts that anyone can make in Excel. But with this map, it felt more solid as the map was printed before the 1974 invasion. Also you said "you seriously telling us that each T/c owned approximately twice the property of each G/C", I didn't say that, in fact I think the opposite, GC's had twice as much property of each TC. But the truth is none of this really matters, what matters is how are we going to mend bridges and get that trust back.

Piratis, sorry if you feel that I was being one sided, I wasn't. I just stated the points that I knew most about. As for 99% of oppression caused by Turks, I doubt that is the case. Ok, the Ottoman Empire was violent, but that was over 400 years ago. So what other events could you account for that would justify 99%? You also say the Greeks are ready to forgive Turks for that 99%, that was an unproductive statement as most of the Turks (including myself) had nothing to do with all that has happened in history. I know I have never killed anyone, taken anyone’s home or hurt a single soul, so I don't need your forgiveness. Also you talk of history, yet your information is always negative towards Turks. From all the research I have done, I can tell you there are hundreds of different renditions of what exactly happened in history, and I don't think it is fair to only mention one side of the story, if you want to give us history lessons please tell us where you got your facts from.

Alexander and Piratis, I knew there were people out there that had hatred in their hearts, but you two are more than extreme. At least 70% of my friends are Greek Cypriots, my best friend (my brother) is a Greek Cypriot, and I have never heard so many biased comments from any of them or their families, in fact they treat me like a king when I visit their home in South Cyprus, I love them all and would always be there for my friends. Your negative comments are what holds us back from making peace. You both need to ignore mrfromng, as he is just an angry person that will insult you because you insult him.

miltiades, you are by far the most honest and fair person on this post. Your views and opinions are none bias and you make sense in what you say. Although I don't know you, I would be proud to call you a friend.

[Kikapu]

Viewpoint , what makes you think that I'm in the minority , quite the opposite , don't just look at this forum , believe me the overwhelming majority want a united Cyprus with all its citizens equal under the laws of the land.

I'm really curious to know whether Miltiades is accurate with the above statement. I can only speak for my family and anyone else who would like to add their feelings towards this statement, would be most interested by me to read, that my family is not alone in this.

I come from a large family. With the extended family members, it gets even larger. Two of my brother-in-laws, one from Cyprus and the other from Turkey are the only two, who do not want anything to do with Greeks from Cyprus or Greece. Do not want their culture, their music, their people. If all the Greeks disappeared tomorrow, they would be complaining that it's not happening fast enough, because of their absolute hate for the Greeks. Both live in the UK, and they don't have much love for the British either, and in one's case, also the Americans. I think you get the picture.

The complaint from the rest of the family regarding the Greeks in Cyprus or Greece, comes down to " we just don't trust them". To my Greek friends, I say, forget my two brother-in-laws and concentrate on the rest of the family to win their trust. The rest of the family represents 90% who would want to unite with the Greeks, if they can feel safe and secure. That they have equal say how Cyprus functions for all, as a "United Country".

I'm almost certain, that you're going to find your own "two brother-in-laws" in your Greek family, and we need to ignore them also and focus on the rest of your family which would be the majority, who would want us to win their trust from the Turks. (I hope I got the trust thing in the right order, if not here it is in plain ENGLISH....we need to trust each other)

In conclusion, Miltiades is spot on, with my family anyway, that he is not in the minority, but the majority to solve the Cyprus problem. We need to build the trust between us.

What does your family say. ???

[Piratis]

I have said time and time again that both sides messed up big time and its becasue of those mistakes we find ourselves in the situation we are in today. Isnt that enough acceptence that we TCs are to blame as well?

What you said many times is that "we deserve partition". So if partition has always been TCs dream and GCs nightmare, then why if both sides are to blame the TCs should have their dream and GCs their nightmare?

If you truly accepted that both sides are to blame, then you would accept that nobody should gain on the loss of another from what we had in 1960. Still you insist that TCs should get more than that while GCs less. If both are to blame then why TCs should be rewarded and GCs punished?

Opened the borders,
Changed our leader,
Voted YES to reunificiation plan as ackonwledged by the UN.
Opened a GC school,
Allowed marraiges in a church,
Establishing a property commission spring to mind...
is this enough no its not but at least we are trying.

Here is the answer I didn't even need to type:
"The political gain far outwieghs the financial cost, please feel free to cancel these "benefits" if they make you feel uncomfortable, I dare you.
"

We are going around in circles but I have to say you tried this in 1963, continually encouraged TCs to go abroad and were planning it in 1974, how goes do you want?

We never tried to do that, and the fact that only some 100s of TCs , about the same number as GCs, over a period of a decade proves that.
But since we are talking about "goes" why you don't tell us how many goes you had to exterminate GCs? You killed 10s of thousands when you first set your food on the island and then you were oppressing us for centuries. Why was a second and a third go given to you?

There is absoulutely no one I know that dosnt feel for all the refugees, and their rights to a fair solution, they paid the highest price, but it happened on both sides, all you do is put weight on your own peoples plight, by using numbers, numercally you will always be larger this does not mean the hardship was greater, its the same everyone suffered. The issue is how do resolve these peoples continuing suffering taking into account the realities of today.

It is not just a matter of numbers.
GCs were forced to leave at gunpoint, while TCs went to the occupied areas to realize their dream of partition and receive land twice as much. Would you also support division if the occupied area for the 18% of TCs was 9% (half) instead of double?

Do you agree Taksim was in direct repsonse to Enosis? without Enosis there would be no Taksim.

Turkey was eying Cyprus as a strategic place of great importance for her since the time they lost it to the British. Even recent speeches of your generals show this. So don't try to excuse taksim and the planned ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots.

Easy to chant very difficult to achieve as long as there is no trust and understanding . How do we get there?

We get there when people accept that the solution of the Cyprus problem will be based on universally accepted principles of democracy and human rights. This is the first required step. If the Turkish attitude continues to be "we won the war and we expect rewards" then we will get nowhere.

[Piratis]

Hi Miltiades, I didn't state exact figures but the map I saw looked exactly like the map Piratis shows on his link and was very old, each dot had figures to show how many people were in each village, and this roughly looked like there was 2 (maybe 3) Greeks to every 1 Turk on the island.

So you just had a look on a map and you "roughly" decided that TCs own 1/3rd of Cyprus??
I gave you already the facts regarding this issue.

Ok, the Ottoman Empire was violent, but that was over 400 years ago. So what other events could you account for that would justify 99%?

The TMT and another extremists that murdered innocent GCs pre 1974 + the Turkish invasion which had as a result 6000 dead and 200.000 refugees. Even if you count only the recent years Turks have caused to us WAY more casualties for a much longer period. Do you doubt about that?

You also say the Greeks are ready to forgive Turks for that 99%, that was an unproductive statement as most of the Turks (including myself) had nothing to do with all that has happened in history. I know I have never killed anyone, taken anyone’s home or hurt a single soul, so I don't need your forgiveness.

I had nothing to do with any crimes either. However Turkey insists on the human rights violations of 100s of thousands of innocent people. So why those violations don't stop and we are still given the excuse that some others some years ago have committed some crimes and therefore we all now have to be punished?

Also you talk of history, yet your information is always negative towards Turks.

If the information about Turks is negative thats the fault of those who created that history and not my fault for mentioning it.
Today for example Turkey continues to write negative history by illegally occupying Cyprus and violating the human rights of 100s of thousands of people.
Instead of complaining to me about this, you should instead demand from Turkey to finally come out of the Middle ages when land grab was the norm and start writing some more positive history finally.

Alexander and Piratis, I knew there were people out there that had hatred in their hearts, but you two are more than extreme.

What of all I said is extreme????

The extreme of GCs were waving Greek flags and demanding enosis. The extreme of TCs were waving Turkish flags and demanding partition.
So who is extreme?

What I do is talk with facts (even if you don't like some of them), and ask for nothing more than legality, democracy and human rights for all Cypriots without racist discriminations. How can that be extreme??

[MR-from-NG]

Why is it every time I read a post from Piratis I feel tired and sleepy?zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz