Cyprus-Forum.com

[sadik]

Kifeas, what were your consideration adjusting the map for Karpas? Are you taking into account the current massive development in Karpas area ?(which actually is within the boundaries of your map) There is also another massive development thats being planned for the Morphou region, but I'm not sure if it's within the Lefka enclave area.

Near which villages is the massive develoment taking place? Is it the one near Vokolida village at the south side of the begining of Karpas? (right after Bogazi village?)

Yep, that's it. There is a project, which will be completed in 2007, which will basically double the bed capacity in the whole north cyprus to about 20,000.

[Kikapu]

I have only now come across this thread, and I must say there are lots of good ideas. Kifeas does well with his "new Cyprus" map, which it looks something like a jigsaw puzzel between Israel and Palestine. As long as there are no check points between one area to another, it should work. However, there might be another way, and I don't know if it has been proposed before.

What if you left the North and South the way is right now, so that you don't need to uproot the people again and asked all those that wants to move back to their homes, if it's still exists, and if it doesn't exist any longer, because there's a new building or a road has been built on their property, then pay the owner to buy another property in the same village if he want to. This will no doubt reduce the % of TC's a great deal if most GC's went back to the North which would make them the majority, and at the same time, TC's would not want to move to the South, because they will really feel out numbered. So you would basicly have 80% GC's and 20% TC's ( round numbers ) of all parts of Cyprus. OK, so far so good. Here comes the hard part.

The reason I believe the TC's do not want to be a minority again, because of what has happened before, so they do not want to be pushed aside politacally. What's more important to the Greek Cypriots;
1. An island that wants to live with the Turkish Cypriots and together build the country for them selves and their children, be able to live where ever they want, live in peace for ever, OR
2. It's more important to have a political majority over the TC's.

If you choose 1. and want the TC's on equal level, then you will need to change the "one man one vote" rule,
instead, much like an away goal system, you will give the TC's 4 votes for every 1 vote that has been cast and only 1 vote for every GC's vote, based on the 80% - 20% of the population. This of course has to be adjusted to include only those that are eligible to vote. What will decide who is elected, will be based on which side had the most voter turn out.

I can already hear the cries of an undemocratic system of human rights violations and so on. The question still stands...WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT...choice 1 OR 2.

[Alexis]

The reason I believe the TC's do not want to be a minority again, because of what has happened before, so they do not want to be pushed aside politacally. What's more important to the Greek Cypriots;
1. An island that wants to live with the Turkish Cypriots and together build the country for them selves and their children, be able to live where ever they want, live in peace for ever, OR
2. It's more important to have a political majority over the TC's.

Hi kikapu,

You have probably hit upon a very important question with regards the solutuion to the Cyprus problem. Remember also that the TCs must make this choice, it's all about compromise. The choice above is very difficult for GCs to make since they either choose to have political dominance comensurate with their population, but forego residency rights in a large part of their country forever, or they acheive full residency rights (a right that is only not afforded to them by the continued occupation of their country by a foreign power) but have only 1 quarter of the political rights of the TCs, as a GC this sounds pretty harsh to me as I don't see exactly what the compromise on behalf of the TCs is? Is simply allowing GCs to live amongst them so large a compromise? Having said all this, a compromise must be found and if this is the only way to achieve unity the GC community must ask itself this question. I'm not sure that full residency rights equate to proportional political rights in most people's eyes but you certainly make a good point.

[Kikapu]

Alexis,

Thanks for your support. If we can get 800,000 more from the Cypriots, then I'll say, let the party begin.!!

You're absolutely correct, compromise, compromise, compromise is what will be needed. It's always difficult for the majority to give too much to the minority, and that's how we got where we are. At one point, when the majority was on a roll to claim all of Cyprus for themselves, I don't think they were in the mood to make any compromises to the minority. Then the wind changed directions, and the minority did not want to make compromises to the majority. As a result, you have a "half baked country" with no winners and a lot of loosers. So, lets all eat our prides and make compromises to benefit all. At the end of the day, life, happiness, loving and sharing the"fully baked country" of Cyprus should be more important than politics.

[Alexis]

Well, we know it's not going to be easy compromising but I for one am willing to give it a go. We owe it to our grandchildren.

[Piratis]

It's always difficult for the majority to give too much to the minority, and that's how we got where we are.

When the minority ruled the whole Cyprus for 300 years against the will of the majority I don't see how you can complain when the majority at some point wanted to be the ones who would take the decisions for the island they inhabited for way longer than all the rest.

We got were we are due to the expansionistic policies of first the Ottomans and then Turkey, so don't try to blame the Greek Cypriots.

During the Ottoman rule the population was divided into higher class Turks (Muslims) and in the lower class of Greeks (Christians). This division of population was maintained by the British, and even by the 1960 constitution that was forced on Cypriots.

This racist division of Cypriot is the root of our problems. Only when all Cypriots will be equal citizens regardless of their race, religion,language etc the Cyprus problem will be truly solved.

Greek Cypriots have made a huge compromise when they accepted the BBF. The solution however should be based on democratic principles and human rights. So 4 votes for "race superior" and 1 vote for slaves might have been OK during the Ottoman era, but such thing can not obviously be accepted now.

Also the land distribution between the states should be based on population percentage. We know very well that this BBF, being a "solution" that maintains the division between the people, will sooner or later fail. If (when) it fails then there is a possibility for official partition and at that point the land distribution will be the most important thing.

[Kikapu]

It's always difficult for the majority to give too much to the minority, and that's how we got where we are.

When the minority ruled the whole Cyprus for 300 years against the will of the majority I don't see how you can complain when the majority at some point wanted to be the ones who would take the decisions for the island they inhabited for way longer than all the rest.

We got were we are due to the expansionistic policies of first the Ottomans and then Turkey, so don't try to blame the Greek Cypriots.

During the Ottoman rule the population was divided into higher class Turks (Muslims) and in the lower class of Greeks (Christians). This division of population was maintained by the British, and even by the 1960 constitution that was forced on Cypriots.

This racist division of Cypriot is the root of our problems. Only when all Cypriots will be equal citizens regardless of their race, religion,language etc the Cyprus problem will be truly solved.

Greek Cypriots have made a huge compromise when they accepted the BBF. The solution however should be based on democratic principles and human rights. So 4 votes for "race superior" and 1 vote for slaves might have been OK during the Ottoman era, but such thing can not obviously be accepted now.

Also the land distribution between the states should be based on population percentage. We know very well that this BBF, being a "solution" that maintains the division between the people, will sooner or later fail. If (when) it fails then there is a possibility for official partition and at that point the land distribution will be the most important thing.

Piratis,

I do not wish to go back 300 years to discuss todays problems, since 1960's agreement between the majority and the minority in the writing of the constitution will suffice as to make the point in which, the Greek Cypriots believed they gave away too much to the Turkish cypriots based on their population %'s. When the majority no longer wanted to abide by those agreement, is why we are were we are today was the point I was making. You can blame the British if you want for imposing these "unjust" agreements upon the majority, but the end result is still the same.

As for the 4 to 1 voting system, is not intended to have a "superior race" versus a "slave race" as you put it. You have already accepted the problems that will occur with the division of the citizens of Cyprus by going along with the BBF, and the partition of Cyprus. Why not compromise to give the minority equal "political strength" so that we are all starting at a "level playing field", and choose leaders from both sides that will serve all communities, in return, not to divide Cyprus into two halves or even into a JIG-SAW puzzle type of settlement. At the end of the day, what seems to matter to you is to have a "majority rule" political dominance over keeping Cyprus intact as a "whole" country.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, what were your consideration adjusting the map for Karpas? Are you taking into account the current massive development in Karpas area ?(which actually is within the boundaries of your map) There is also another massive development thats being planned for the Morphou region, but I'm not sure if it's within the Lefka enclave area.

Near which villages is the massive develoment taking place? Is it the one near Vokolida village at the south side of the begining of Karpas? (right after Bogazi village?)

Yep, that's it. There is a project, which will be completed in 2007, which will basically double the bed capacity in the whole north cyprus to about 20,000.

You know something Sadik, I hope that this land grapping and usurping motivated attitude of the T/C leadership and their mainland Turkish masters will eventually turn bi-zonality into an impossible mission, because I cannot envision the G/C side to ever concede to guaranteed Constituent State majorities, with 47% of the coastlines falling under the T/C state!