Cyprus-Forum.com

[brother]

This is not a beneficial debate but more of a stirring, what happened in the past haunts us all but we must exorcise our demons or this paranoia will be the end of us all.


Piratis the statements you make are true but using them in the pretext that you have is a form of blackmail which i find very unsavourey and as i have asked you before try to answer back with positive incentives not retorts that only gets the others back up, you have before on this forum shown that maturity do it again do not lower yourself to that level of non compromise.

We all want our cyprus to be a democratic country and follow the path of human rights but we must respect that we all have our own beliefs and teachings right or wrong is not the issue but assisting each other of our plight is what will eventually heal our people and put us back on route where we left of and that is as one people one island the cypriot people.

[MicAtCyp]

Acording to my arithmetic, about 70 thousands will remain

Explain us your arithmetic Mr Vague man. May I remind you that your faulty calculator output 41K initially!

You never replied to me what position would the 15K TC public servants would hold in the Common state if the Anan Plan had passed. May I remind you of the fact that ALL the names Talat proposed are currently holding high administrative positions.
Let me help you: they wouldn’t be typists, they wouldn’t be answering the phones, they wouldn’t be messengers.

As for your "kind" and "private" insinuations, you know the answer already.

[Bananiot]

The above gentleman suffers from split personality, it appears. I am compelled to repeat what he included in a thread in a greek language forum just prior to the referendum regarding the issue of the settlers:

Εποικοι – οι πιό πολλοί μένουν, αλλά μελλοντικά προστατεύεται για πάντα ο δημογραφικός χαρακτήρας της Κύπρου από νέο εποικισμό

• Μένουν 45,000 με ονομαστική λίστα
• Κάποιοι άλλοι από τους υπόλοιπους 75,000 μπορεί να μείνουν με βάση περίπλοκα κριτήρια, δύσκολο να πούμε πόσοι
• Κάποιοι έποικοι θα πάνε πίσω
• Ομως, σταματά η ακατάσχετη ροή, και ισχύει το 5% όριο για 19 χρόνια
• Μετά την λήξη του 5% παίρνουμε κάτι πολύ καλύτερο. Απαγορεύεται ρητά η αλλαγή του δημογραφικού χαρακτήρα της Κύπρου, είτε υπέρ Ελληνόφωνων είτε υπέρ Τούρκων!! Αυτό σημαίνει ότι μπορούμε να εμποδίζουμε μέχρι και όλη την μετανάστευση νέων Τούρκων, και να επιτρέπουμε την μετανάστευση Ελλήνων για να επέλθει ισορροπία, εαν χρειαστεί. (Σε αντάλλαγμα για αυτή την μόνιμη προστασία από τον κίνδυνο νόμιμου εποικισμού, τα 2/3 των κατοίκων του Βορρά μόνιμα θα πρέπει να είναι Τούρκοι, διασφαλίζοντας ότι ο Βορράς θα είναι μόνιμα το Τ/Κ κράτος και ότι δεν θα αλλάξει η ταυτότητα του.)
• Με την μη λύση, δημιουργούνται νέα μη αναστρέψιμα τετελεσμένα από εποικισμό. Ιδιαίτερα τώρα που ξέρουν ότι θα γίνουμε Ευρώπη, άρχισε νέο κύμα εποικισμού.

I wish I had the time to translate it, but, what amazes me most is that in this greek language forum, the same man is a ... friend of mine and we have agreed on ALL issues! It is really spooky!

[-mikkie2-]

It is also compelling to note that you thought only 41000 would remain initially!

Incidently, I don't see anything in wrong in a person changing their mind as long as that person states the reasons why in the context of the discussion.

I for one changed my mind after reading the plan, because I feel that any feelings against the settlers by TC's is subdued by the fact the north is effectively under occupation. We all know very well that many TC's do not like the settlers. I believe that this is storing up big problems for the future where hostility to settlers by TC's and by GC's would come out in the open under a new 'unified' Cyprus.

The best answer is to minimise the number that stay, and for TUrkey to compensate those people that would go back.

And it is interesting to note that Turkey is completely absolved of the crimes she has comitted in Cyprus. In the Balkans the zeal with which the War Crimes tribunal is hunting down the people that perpertrated crimes is in contrast to the complete lack of any action in bringing TUrkey to book, despite a large number of UN resolutions which squarely place responsibility of Turkey for the situation that has now ensued on the island.

[erolz]

I believe that this is storing up big problems for the future where hostility to settlers by TC's and by GC's would come out in the open under a new 'unified' Cyprus.

The best answer is to minimise the number that stay, and for TUrkey to compensate those people that would go back.

I have been trying to stay out of the 'sensative' threads but this issue is one that I really do feel very strongly about.

The best answer is not to minimise the number of settlers but to deal with why such hostilty exists. It is not the settlers that are the problem in this regard but Cypriots attitude to those who are considered 'other'.

This kind of hatred and hostility to anything considered 'other' is a plague that must be eradicated. So even if we limit the number of (turkish mainland) settlers to stop 'hostility' in the future do you really think that new 'others' could not and would not be found? Be they GC or TC or foreign workers or black people or europeans or any other category that is ripe for hostility? If we can not and do not find ways of living in harmony with those around us despite their creed religion race or place of birth then Cyprus is doomed.

For me how we (on both sides) treat those that are 'other' than us is the litmus test of Cypriots ability to build a better future for all. Just saying 'send them away' is no answer. Dealing with our own prejudice is the only way forward (imho).

[-mikkie2-]

Welcome back erol.

I am being pragmatic erol.

I would say that after a solution, many of the settlers will face hostility and they will probably leave for other parts of the EU. Many will quite possibly leave anyway as they will have an EU 'ticket'.

You may well ask why don't we be more open on this subject but the problem is you are not dealing with a small % of people. If the settlers number 120000 lets say then that is 15% of the population currently in Cyprus!

The humane way would be to allow those that have been on the island for many years to have the choice to stay as thay have lived long enough here to feel Cypriot, but those that are here as economic migrants with the prospect of getting rich quick off other people land and property should be given the financial incentive to leave.

Coming up with the wishy washy argument that we should be more accepting is a road to knowhere, or in this case a road to another disaster in the future.

[erolz]

Coming up with the wishy washy argument that we should be more accepting is a road to knowhere, or in this case a road to another disaster in the future.

It's not a wishy washy argument as I see it. Its core and fundamental. If we can not tollerate the Turkish mainland settlers that now live in Cyprus then there is little hope we will be able to tollerate each other or any other group that is deemed 'different or other'. I have no desire to build a united Cyprus that is intollerant of non Cypriots even if we managed to live in harmony as GC and TC. This intollerance of 'others' is a root of the divisions in Cyprus between the TC and GC. For me it is no solution for TC and GC to unite if that means uniting against some other group of people. Without greater tollerance to all people we might consider 'different' there is no hope for Cyprus (or anywhere else for that matter). For me arguing that Turkish mainland settlers should be sent away for fear of Cypriot intollerance towards them in the future is just not the right approach. It is an approach that accepts and codifes intollerance. Intollerance of groups of people is always wrong (imo) and should always be fought against. Always. No pragmatism, no compromise, no exceptions as I see it. The settlers are here in Cyprus now - let's show how much we have 'grown up' as a society by proving our tollerance towards these people and any others in Cyprus. For me it is simply not good enough to say humans are intollerant of others by nature and you can not change that - so best to keep 'others' away or limit their numbers. That to me is not pragmatism - it's an acceptance of failure.

[pantelis]

Erol,
Remember these?

http://groups.msn.com/CyprusForum/gener ... 5867474674

http://groups.msn.com/CyprusForum/gener ... 3500231387

http://groups.msn.com/CyprusForum/gener ... 1608903697

[Bananiot]

I did not say that only 41000 will stay. I know very well the provisions of the A plan on this matter. I was referring to those that will stay in excess of those provided by the first 2 clauses who I thought their stay was not questioned by anyone. I was upset by the claim that ALL WILL STAY. This is what prompted my response.

I presume, thus, that mikkie also thinks that every single one would stay if the A plan got a green light from the GC community. I cannot agree with this and its very difficult for me to see the logic behind it, unless its a ploy to attack the A plan which is useless to deploy now because the plan is dead and buried.

According to "Kibrisli", 20 000 new settlers have come from Turkey since the referendum and personally I cannot see how this tide can be stemmed. If the A plan went through, then not a single settler would have arrived but now, I hate to make the extrapolation.

I agree with Erol's statement about the way we deal with the "others". Its a xenophobic and racist attitude which has fed and bred some of the worst monsters on earth who called for racial purity and inocculated the unsuspecting with a virus worse than HIV.

[Piratis]

hmmm ... what is strange for me in the way Bananiot reacts:

When its about Greek Cypriots, he throws everything about human rights and other ideals in the trash, saying that such things are not "real world".

When its about the settlers, he suddenly becomes the number one idealist of the forum.

Sure we have nothing against foreigners (part of which settlers are), but Cyprus is our country, and thats why we have the country in the first place. If we wanted Cyprus to be a "free for all" land, then whats the point of having a state on this island? Aren't countries created to protect the interests of their citizens?

So one thing is to have foreigners here visiting, working or getting the citizenship on a case by case basis, and a whole another thing to bring here 10s of thousands of foreigners that will take away our properties and live on welfare that we will have to pay for.

Cyprus has to protect the human rights of its own citizens. Turkey should take care of its own. Thats how it goes.

Otherwise less send all our poor people to the US, and demand that the US people will build houses for them and feed them - very convenient indeed (and until they finish building our people houses, our people will occupy their houses). And if the US does not accept this, it would mean (according to some) that they are racists xenophobic. Let me tell you, if this is how you judge racism, then the whole world is racist.