Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

In another thread (that went way off topic) the question was raised about what should be the final destination for Cyprus.

About the "how" we will get there is something we obviously can not agree. Some said for example that we should have accepted the Annan plan and then try to change it to something more acceptable - workable. Since this came from one of the most zealous Annan plan supporters I assume that not even them considered this plan as the final solution.

So if we forget the how we will get there, can we agree on where we want to finally get? Actually I believe that the right order is deciding where you are going before you decide how you will get there.

So, can we at least agree on what should be the final solution?

For me this should be the final destination that will permanently solve the Cyprus problem:

One united Cyprus without any kind of borders and restrictions, were all citizens are equal regardless of their race/language/religion/ethnic background etc, were human rights are fully respected and the differences between the people are not used as an excuse for conflict and discrimination, but are supported equally by the state to help enrich our island as a meting pot of different people that can live together in peace, in the crossroads of the 3 continents.

When we achieve this I am sure that Cypriots will finally manage to take advantage of the great location of their country for themselves, and make Cyprus a center for the arts, education, technology and trade. Cyprus could even be the ideal place for the relocation of UN!

Now the above is the ideal. Its a dream. But you have to admit that it is a much better dream than the ones that drove us to separation and disasters.

Of course I am not expecting this to happen overnight. It will take many years, possibly several decades. However if we manage to agree on the final aim, then the how we will get there will be simplified. The solution can include several steps and transitional periods which will gradually bring us the desired result. Many of us might not even live to see the end result and we might have to make sacrifices. However we would know that we did what was right for our children and the future generations of the finally united Cypriots. (and not just united Cyprus)

Now I am interested to listen of alternative "final destinations" for Cyprus. Lets see if our views will be closer this time.

[cypezokyli]

for the above to be complete you have to explain us the "sacrifices" that you are willing to make.
i mean the how and the where are impossible to seperate bc the one affects the other.
if you want to go to place A , and you dont have a map , how do you expect me to follow you ?

let me make a stupid example: a cyprus that belongs to the cypriots (the "where") and those who are not cypriots we shoot them dead (the "how") .
i.e. even though the above sounds nice as a "where" i would still prefer to loose that "where" (irrespective of the fact that it might be ideal) and have my hands clean from blood.

so , the above question is pointless if one doesnot have a complete view of where and how we can achieve those goals.

so if you would be kind enough to explain those transition stages , and see if these can be acceptable by both communities (or else we are talking about another utopia )

....for example :
step 1. after 30 years the balance of power (hopefully changes) . i am not sure if thats so ethical , bc then we will be actually "forcing" the other side to agree (sth that we know it wont work ...but anyway )
step 2 : ....
...
step 110 : One united Cyprus without any kind of borders and restrictions, were all citizens are equal regardless of their race/language/religion/ethnic background etc, were human rights are fully respected and the differences between the people are not used as an excuse for conflict and discrimination, but are supported equally by the state to help enrich our island as a meting pot of different people that can live together in peace, in the crossroads of the 3 continents.

[Piratis]

for the above to be complete you have to explain us the "sacrifices" that you are willing to make.

Most definetely 1000s of pages are needed to describe the "how" we will get there.

if you want to go to place A , and you dont have a map , how do you expect me to follow you ?

Don't we first have to agree that you want to follow me to place A? If I tell you that I want to go to a warm place with lots of sunshine next to the beach, and you want to go to a cold mountain with lots of snow, then whats the point of giving you directions of how you can go to a place that you don't want to go in the first place?

If however we agree on the where then I can tell you of what I think its the best way to get there. And there might be more than one routs leading to place A (the "how"). Then we might agree on the route to place A or we might not. But if can't even agree on the where we want to go, then whats the point of discussing the how?

let me make a stupid example: a cyprus that belongs to the cypriots (the "where") and those who are not cypriots we shoot them dead (the "how") .

Thats indeed a stupid example. Of course the "how" will be in the same spirit of the "where". But I repeat, this is a thread about the WHERE. Nobody obligates you to agree on the "how" later on.

So stop being so negative and expect one thread to encompass the whole solution to the Cyprus problem.

There have been many threads discussing the "how" without the "where" and you didn't have a problem expressing your opinion in those. So if you can have an opinion about the how we will get "there" without knowing were this "there" is, then I am sure you can follow the much more natural order of first deciding where we want to go and later decide about the route.

[cypezokyli]

funny that when i was thinking of an answer i stubbled on the following :

mearsheimer john j. 2001 : the tragedy of great power politics , new york : W.W.Norton & Co p. 50

Great powers cannot commit themselves to peace for two reasons : First states are unlikely to agree on a general formula for bolstering peace...but most important , policy makers are unable to agree on how to create a stable world. For example at the Paris Peace Conference after WWI , important differences of how to create stability in Europe divided Georges Clemencau, David Lloyd George , and Widrow Wilson. In particular Clemencau was determines to impose harsher terms on Germany over the Rhineland than was Lloyd George or Wilson , while Lloyd George stood-out as the hard liner on german reparations. The treaty of Versailles , not surprisingly , did little to promote European stability.

and imagine , they all wanted to achieve stability!!!
the tergat appearread so clear!
they all agreed to it!
and their "how" pushed them away from the "where" they wanted to get.

....

let me give you , my plan for cyprus in the future , and hopefully you will understand how easy and rediculous it is to make a sentence full of generalities , like "stability" or the one of our politicians : "fair and viable solution" .

i want a peaceful united cyprus, hopefully when i am sitll alive to enjoy it.

satisfied ?
or do you want me to elaborate on some generalities?
believe me , its very easy to do.

[kalahari]

One united Cyprus without any kind of borders and restrictions, were all citizens are equal regardless of their race/language/religion/ethnic background etc, were human rights are fully respected and the differences between the people are not used as an excuse for conflict and discrimination, but are supported equally by the state to help enrich our island as a meting pot of different people that can live together in peace, in the crossroads of the 3 continents.

Perhaps I would not have used those words, but the sentiment I could not have phrased better. May I add one thing?

A proud Cyprus, independent in its sovereignty, confident in its own unique cultural identity, and respected at the table by the other nations of the world.

Love this thread Piratis, it's great to see some shameless optimism.

Kal

[Piratis]

cypezokyli, nobody said that the "how" is easy. What I said is that finding a way to get somewhere is impossible if don't agree on where we are going. So it is not easy VS difficult. It is dificult (if we agree on the destination) VS impossible (if we don't)

let me give you , my plan for cyprus in the future , and hopefully you will understand how easy and rediculous it is to make a sentence full of generalities , like "stability" or the one of our politicians : "fair and viable solution" .

i want a peaceful united cyprus, hopefully when i am sitll alive to enjoy it.

satisfied ?

I believe I was a lot more specific than that. I didn't say just "stability" and "fair".

Sure, everyone can agree on generalizations such as "far". However can you agree on the much more specific things I talked about, e.g. "all citizens are equal regardless of their race/language/religion/ethnic background"?

Equality of all citizens, democracy, and respect of human rights are I believe fundamental principles that should describe the "final destination".

Now your "peaceful and united Cyprus" could be a description of a period during the Ottoman empire. There was no war and Cyprus was united. Would this be a desired kind of solution for you even without the components of democracy and human rights and the absence of racist discriminations?

Love this thread Piratis, it's great to see some shameless optimism.

It is not about optimism. I have not said about how optimistic or pessimistic I am that what I propose will be allowed for Cyprus.

It is about Cypriots finding a common aim. If we do that then I will be a bit more optimistic.

[TheCabbie]

It is about Cypriots finding a common aim. If we do that then I will be a bit more optimistic.

Personally, I'd find it amazing, the only place you'll find Cypriots with a common aim is somewhere in the land of Flying Pigs and Rocking Horse Shit....

Not being pessimistic, just realistic!

[cypezokyli]

you know which is the word we always fight about , and you try to hide yourself behind generalities....

i told you its easy and let me prove it to you :

i want a cyprus where every person irrespective of race/religion/sex will enjoy the four basic freedoms : freedom from want , freedom from fear , freedom of religion , freedom of expression.
i want a cyprus where everyone has the right to life, liberty and security
i want a cyprus where the opposite opinion will be respected.
i want a cyprus where all children will be billingual , and nicosia being the centre of billingual schools
i want a cyprus where the society the media the history books do not create children filled with hate and nationalism.
i want a cyprus which will be able to recognise its richness as a place where many civilizations have crossed. a place which the diversity will be considered as richness, and not as a reason to fight for.
i want a cyprus where people will have peace , abstention from violence and attrocities , as their prime goal.
i want a cyprus in which all of the above will happen before it is too late.

now, that was more specific wasnt it ?

[Viewpoint]

Isn't that a rather tall order for people that even can't get around a table to discuss and solve their differences. Neither side has the desire or vision to want nay of the above so we have the stalemate situation which we are all getting very comfortable with.

Congratulations to all "Cypriots" you reep what you sow...

[Piratis]

told you its easy and let me prove it to you :

i want a cyprus where every person irrespective of race/religion/sex will enjoy the four basic freedoms : freedom from want , freedom from fear , freedom of religion , freedom of expression.
i want a cyprus where everyone has the right to life, liberty and security
i want a cyprus where the opposite opinion will be respected.
i want a cyprus where all children will be billingual , and nicosia being the centre of billingual schools
i want a cyprus where the society the media the history books do not create children filled with hate and nationalism.
i want a cyprus which will be able to recognise its richness as a place where many civilizations have crossed. a place which the diversity will be considered as richness, and not as a reason to fight for.
i want a cyprus where people will have peace , abstention from violence and attrocities , as their prime goal.
i want a cyprus in which all of the above will happen before it is too late.

I agree with all!

now, that was more specific wasnt it ?

Of course it can.

For example:

Do you want a Cyprus were all people are equal regardless of their race/religion/ethnic background etc? Or not?

Do you want respect to all human rights of all Cypriots, or some human rights violations are included in the country you would like your children to live in?

Isn't that a rather tall order for people that even can't get around a table to discuss and solve their differences.

People got around the talble 100s of times and we had many rounds of negotiations with no result. The reason in the topic of this thread. They were wasting their time discussing the "how" before they first agreed on the "where".

Congratulations to all "Cypriots" you reep what you sow...

What I "sow" is being a law obeying citizen, respecting the human and democratic rights of others. What are you sowing? I hope you are getting ready to reap.