Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

For arguements sake lets say these people do not live in GC properties, what is your revised version of human rights and democracy for these people???

Cyprus, a tiny island, can not guarantee the human rights of the 6 billion people on earth.
If any foreigners want to be in Cyprus they are welcomed as long as they follow the legal procedures, acquire visas, respect our laws etc. Their human rights will be fully respected. (of course since they will be foreigners they will not vote in Cyprus but to the elections of their own country)

Beyond that the Turks should revolt against their military ruled country and demand democracy and human rights. EU (which Cyprus is part of) is trying to push Turkey in this direction but unfortunately the Turkish military regime is resisting any positive changes. Lets hope this will change in the future so that Turks, Kurds and the other minorities in Turkey will also be able to have a democratic country without racist discriminations.

I take it the only thing, in you opinion, that the ROC has sown in way of a settlement is "acceptance for legality and everything that goes with it"?

and you wonder why the Cyprus problem has never been solved. Are you saying that the only thing the ROC government has done is this since 1974? Thats 32 years and thats the best they can do?

Have they done anything towards solving the problem apart from this?

We tried to negotiate with no result since Turkey had no wish to show respect to international law and the sovereignty of Republic of Cyprus.

Beyond that what did you expect Cyprus to do to end the foreign occupation. Can you give me examples of what other countries did to liberate themselves from foreign occupation?

During WWII when most of Europe was under the Nazis, some countries kept fighting for democracy, their sovereignty and human rights, while some other countries choose to cooperate with the Nazis and accepted racist discriminations, human rights violations etc. But I don't remember any country convincing Germany to end the occupation .. maybe you have a good example from some other part of history?

[BirKibrisli]

Piratis,let me give you the quick and simple answer to your question:
My final destination is exactly the same as yours.A truly democratic Unitary state where everyone is a human being first and anything else inconsequential...
So far so good.Where the problem will come in is in the definition and application of "a true democracy".Some people think that democracy is all about majority rule.You have the numbers you call the shots.Too bad for everyone else. I would call that kind of democracy "the dictatorship of the masses".In real/true democracies the rights ,wishes and the interests of the minorities are zealously protected.The minorities are cherished,and their existence celebrated.They are never left to the mercy of the majority,and their full participation in all aspects of life is guaranteed.
No amount of force or coersion is used to assimilate them in any way.

What i am geting at is this: given our tragic and sorry history "the majority" has to do a lot of work to convince "the minority" that the state they will be living in will be truly democratic as above. People like Viewpoint will just not trust your or my word that all will be well. They will want solid,hard rock guarantees to even consider coming to the party.
And it is no good accusing them of wanting to steal other people's property or practise ethnic cleansing or whatever. They are decent,hardworking people with high moral values,only shit-scared for their lives and the lives of their families.And without a sense of personal security,life would be intolerable even in the Garden of Eden.
I know I am getting away from the topic a bit,but my point is there will be no simple answers to your question.No simple answers which will result in a fair and just solution for all.

[Piratis]

My final destination is exactly the same as yours.

I had no doubt Birkibrisli. I would just hoped that more people would at least agree on the "where" since we seem to have difficulties on agreeing about the "how". Do you think that it is possible that the majority of both TCs and GCs can agree on this as the aim for Cyprus?

So far so good.Where the problem will come in is in the definition and application of "a true democracy".Some people think that democracy is all about majority rule.You have the numbers you call the shots.Too bad for everyone else. I would call that kind of democracy "the dictatorship of the masses".In real/true democracies the rights ,wishes and the interests of the minorities are zealously protected.The minorities are cherished,and their existence celebrated.They are never left to the mercy of the majority,and their full participation in all aspects of life is guaranteed.
No amount of force or coersion is used to assimilate them in any way.

I fully agree. this is why I said: "were human rights are fully respected and the differences between the people are not used as an excuse for conflict and discrimination, but are supported equally by the state to help enrich our island as a meting pot of different people that can live together in peace"
Also in other threads I talked about affirmative actions that would guarantee that no group of Cypriots would be under-represented in anything.

What i am geting at is this: given our tragic and sorry history "the majority" has to do a lot of work to convince "the minority" that the state they will be living in will be truly democratic as above.

I agree. But this work should be done by both sides. Do not forget that both sides have trust problems and fears due to our history, not just the TCs.

And it is no good accusing them of wanting to steal other people's property or practise ethnic cleansing or whatever. They are decent,hardworking people with high moral values,only shit-scared for their lives and the lives of their families.And without a sense of personal security,life would be intolerable even in the Garden of Eden.

I am sure what you say represents you and a big part of the TC community. But not all. You have to admit that the partition (=ethnic cleansing, stealing etc) dream unfortunately is still alive and well among many TCs since many of them continue to believe that they can benefit on the loss of GCs because Turkey is powerful and they have "won the war". Most GCs droped their "dream" after the "slap" of 74. I hope that there are less painful ways to make those TCs drop their own "dream" and adopt a better one like the one you and me just agreed.

[BirKibrisli]

Do you think that it is possible that the majority of both TCs and GCs can agree on this as the aim for Cyprus?

I am sure the majority of the GCs would agree,but not the majority of TCs at this stage.Don't forget that most TCs remaining in Cyprus have been brainwashed that without the Turkish Army they would be breakfast food for the GCs.They will want to hang on to as much of their special priviledges as possible,for as long as possible.Just human nature.

I am sure what you say represents you and a big part of the TC community. But not all. You have to admit that the partition (=ethnic cleansing, stealing etc) dream unfortunately is still alive and well among many TCs since many of them continue to believe that they can benefit on the loss of GCs because Turkey is powerful and they have "won the war". Most GCs droped their "dream" after the "slap" of 74. I hope that there are less painful ways to make those TCs drop their own "dream" and adopt a better one like the one you and me just agreed.

As far as I know only a small percentage of TCs have benefited from the calamity which befell their GC compatriots.Mainly Rauf Denktash and his cronies from the UBP and the DP,the parties he founded(though DP is now run by Denktash Junior as you know). Others who really benefitted include the settlers,members of the Turkish army (the ones given incentives to settle in Cyprus after 1974),and some Mucahits given property and land in exchange of services rendered.Most TCs have been given the Mushroom Treatment (kept in the dark and fed on nationalistic bullshit )for so long now that they all believe they are mushrooms.

[michalis5354]

I think they can agree only If they go to negotiations , hear and listen the other side. Then They will both have a better understanding on what the other side is seeking. Now speculating that the other side does not want this , but it accepts some other things It is not the right way to go .

What is missing is a constructive approach from both sides to solve the issue. I have not seen any action from Papadopoulos to prove that this man is genuine for solution! If there is such action then I will be glad to hear !

[Viewpoint]

Piratis,let me give you the quick and simple answer to your question:
My final destination is exactly the same as yours.A truly democratic Unitary state where everyone is a human being first and anything else inconsequential...
So far so good.Where the problem will come in is in the definition and application of "a true democracy".Some people think that democracy is all about majority rule.You have the numbers you call the shots.Too bad for everyone else. I would call that kind of democracy "the dictatorship of the masses".In real/true democracies the rights ,wishes and the interests of the minorities are zealously protected.The minorities are cherished,and their existence celebrated.They are never left to the mercy of the majority,and their full participation in all aspects of life is guaranteed.
No amount of force or coersion is used to assimilate them in any way.

What i am geting at is this: given our tragic and sorry history "the majority" has to do a lot of work to convince "the minority" that the state they will be living in will be truly democratic as above. People like Viewpoint will just not trust your or my word that all will be well. They will want solid,hard rock guarantees to even consider coming to the party.
And it is no good accusing them of wanting to steal other people's property or practise ethnic cleansing or whatever. They are decent,hardworking people with high moral values,only shit-scared for their lives and the lives of their families.And without a sense of personal security,life would be intolerable even in the Garden of Eden.
I know I am getting away from the topic a bit,but my point is there will be no simple answers to your question.No simple answers which will result in a fair and just solution for all.

Congratualtions Bir, if only what you say did not fall on deaf ears and was understood and acted upon. GCs have to realize that being the recognized half of the island and financially superior, it is them that have to take the first steps to emfactically and without doubt prove to TCs that they can trust GC intentions in a untied Cyprus, what do we get? Papdop telling all sorts of bullshit which only goes towards entreching TCs in a feeling of discomfort and total circle of mistrust, of course TCs will not jump into a black hole of GC administered style of human rights and democracy for TCs, remember we do not have anothing new to go on so automatically TCs revert back and look at their past track record which was diabolical.

GCs have to realize that they have to help us to help them, its called working together.

[boulio]

michalis5354 do you have those ten steps to a solution yet?

[andri_cy]

I wonder if it is that big and he is still typing
Maybe you could scan it michali.

[michalis5354]

ok ok ok

[michalis5354]

Since I am lazy to type the whole article I will post only the guidlines that this person has suggested. This does not mean that I agree with him ! Maybe I can post as a separate topic each for discussion!